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Thread: help rolls transition from a tuna to a tuner

  1. #1
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    help rolls transition from a tuna to a tuner

    Hey guys, so I've purchased HP Tuners and am going to give tuning a go. I will be attempting to turn a standard BF XR6T tune into something that will run the following: ID1000, intercooler, dump and ~15psi.

    I've got an SCT XCAL tune in the car currently that runs this combination fine but I cannot edit the tune with HP tuners (OS ID is scrambled and support aren't interested in supporting it) so it leaves the only option of doing it again myself as a learning experience. What I plan to do is the following:
    "return to stock" with XCAL4
    Start hacking the stock tune on the weekends
    Save hacked tune
    Load stock tune
    Plug XCAL4 back in and load my custom tune so I can drive to work etc.
    "Return to stock" with xcal4
    go to step 2 until my HP tuners tune is acceptable and I don't need to or want to keep using the XCAL tune.
    Now in terms of where to start I've found this guide:
    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...n-Ford-Turbo-6

    and been told to read Paul Yaws injector dynamics write up. Can someone post a link to this article?

    The next thing to get my head around is how the fueling is calculated. It seems from looking at some offline files and reading the above thread you get your "MAP per airmass high res" to get your commanded AFR to match your actual AFR so you can then tune the base fuel map.

    My understanding is you update your base fuel map (TPS vs rpm) to give the AFR you want at specific RPM, the ECU will then use this map along with the calculation air mass to work out how much fuel is required. This seems quite different to how other ECUs calculate fueling, eg they will have a single map of load (MAF or calculated MAF via a MAP sensor) vs rpm.

    Am I totally off the mark? Does the command AFR in the TPS vs RPM base fuel map get used like this?

    I will keep reading as this seems very different to how other ECUs that I've tuned work and I want to have a solid understanding before attempting any tuning.

    Is there an equivalent writeup for ignition timing and injector sizing? As these will be the next things I need to read.

    Another thing as I can't read my SCT tune what should I datalog to get and insight to how it has been tuned currently. Eg can I effectively log all of these parameters to reverse engineer what my current maps might be so I have a good starting factor? What is better for datalogging, SCT livelink or the VCM scanner for HPT?

  2. #2
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    Hey Rolls, Checkout the "Slack Dog tune" thread.. The Map Per Airmass method is the "correct" way of calibrating the Aus Ford Pcm's but for majority of cases it's not necessary.. Log RPM, Throttle position, timing advance, IAT, ECT, LTFT, STFT to start, if you can log an analogue output from your wideband that will help, I'm sure there's more, but this will get you started

    Find the ID1000 Data on his website also, input all the data.. Low slope, High slope, breakpoint, voltage offsets, (off the top of my head)
    Using a wideband, start it up, let it get to operating temp then turn off and start again you have 10 or so seconds when the car will run in open loop so adjust your low slope until your achieving your target lambda (once the fuel starts to trim it will give you a good idea of what percentage to alter the slope by) lower numbers add fuel, higher deducts fuel... The Base Fuel Table is your target fueling.. Adjust your high slope to target what's in your base fuel table when at WOT... Use caution

    The timing tables look more complicated then they are... Borderline knock is the main table, but it works with the MBT table, as well as having Multipliers that also affect the achieved timing, ECT, IAT, VCT, Lambda.. Study these to see what they are doing and why they might be doing it before altering any..

    There's 2 ways boost control works, Open and Closed loop, the factory Closed loop is quite good, so you can use that as a base and adjust from there.. The Duty cycle table is essentially a bleed valve that's adjustable by RPM, 0 is fully open, 1 is closed, then set the desired boost to follow how the boost is reacting.. In closed loop it will always try to target your desired boost, to a point..

    there are much more experienced guys on here, so this is just a basic run down which will get you on your way
    Last edited by Peppy_t; 08-18-2015 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Swapped closed/open

  3. #3
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    Good write up Pep, If something like this was around many moons ago it would of helped alot of other guys to get the ball rolling quicker.
    Basic but to the point without playing around with other functions that dont need fiddeling around with.

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    Awesome thanks for the info. I have all the time in the world and I'm a bit of a perfectionist so I would prefer to do it "properly". Are you able to detail any pros and cons of simply adjusting injector data to get the desired AFR vs doing it via the map per airmass. Obviously time is a big one but I have plenty of that.

    Something else I want to consider doing down the track is achieving a lean burn either by simulating a narrowband from my wideband at a leaner AFR or disabling it completely and running in open loop (unsure if this will run into big issues with changing weather conditions).

    edit: When is closed loop boost control used?
    Last edited by rolls; 08-18-2015 at 07:12 PM.

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    Thanks JVK, I know! It's pretty much my understanding from everything I've taken in over the years from the likes of Toads, hiddeous, jet and the few who started the Aus tuning thread.. So thanks to those guys

    Rolls, that's all outlined in the slack dog thread and Darryl's Speed Density thread.. Basically if you can achieve your desired fueling throughout the map just by altering the slopes, why alter the SD table..

    You have to disable closed loop to be able to use it as open loop.. Do this by zeroing out the Proportional and integral values, as well as the on/off boost thresholds...
    Last edited by Peppy_t; 08-18-2015 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Swapped closed/open

  6. #6
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    Hi Pep.
    I was under the impression the factory boost controller was closed loop. E.g received feedback and adjusted accordingly?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaz097 View Post
    Hi Pep.
    I was under the impression the factory boost controller was closed loop. E.g received feedback and adjusted accordingly?
    It can do both by the looks of it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by rolls View Post
    It can do both by the looks of it.
    Yeah it can and a lot of tuna's run them in open loop. But from factory they are closed loop as you often see manageable boost levels even after minor intake/cooler(flow) changes on a stock tune.
    Last edited by Gaz097; 08-18-2015 at 08:41 PM.

  9. #9
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    Yes it can. Essentially Open loop boost requires maxing out the parameters used by the boost control to maintain desired boost. So your WG DC table becomes you main driver for boost control rather the desired boost + wastegate duty cycle + boost control logic.

    Boost control logic/gain/whatever you want to call it. Alters WG DC to maintain desired boost within the parameters set (over/under boost, prop gain etc etc) obviously the stock system is design to support stock mechanicals so it is possible to exceed the capabilities with a modified car. Hence force open boost and tune the WGDC table.

    Open Loop Boost control is essentially the same as using an EBoost2 etc without the added features of the standalone unit.
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

  10. #10
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    Yeah that's what I thought. Even a eboost can be set up in 2 different ways. Can just set duty cycle and let it run (open loop), or do a power run on a particular duty cycle and record max boost then set gain and correction to target this boost (closed loop).

  11. #11
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    That's what I meant mate, always get the two confused... But I know what I mean..

    I have rectified it in my posts so hopefully it doesn't confuse anyone
    Last edited by Peppy_t; 08-18-2015 at 09:07 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaz097 View Post
    Yeah that's what I thought. Even a eboost can be set up in 2 different ways. Can just set duty cycle and let it run (open loop), or do a power run on a particular duty cycle and record max boost then set gain and correction to target this boost (closed loop).

    Still technically open loop in scenario 2 as it doesn't receive boost a boost pressure signal and correct duty cycle based on this.

    Ie you can't set the eb2 to 10lbs and a set point of 22 and have it increase it's setpoint up to say 35 to maintain boost on a hot day or reduce it to say 18 on a cold night to maintain the 10lbs. The factory system will do this but can run out of room to move.

    (FWIW I run an EB2 on my car (have been using them for near on 10 yrs) and rate them very highly I have two boost groups set up on mine at the moment one for full lazy auto mode in the zf and the other for perf/manual.

    Edit: Im yet to find and affordable ebc that offers true closed loop boost control. Most don't even have the advanced mapping functions the EB2 has.

    If turbosmart could release a true closed system the allow you to set target boost over rpm and have the system correct duty cycle to maintain it they would sell like hot cakes. True set and forget closed loop.

    It would also allow better overboost control function to operate rather the the fairly crude system they have not.

    Ie if overboost threshold is hit the EBC could ramp the WGDC down till target boost pressure is achieved rather than cutting boost until it's half of the overboost value.

    The haltech elite ECU's do this very well but a little over the top running one just for boost control!
    Last edited by hiddeous; 08-18-2015 at 10:12 PM.
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

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    Ralphy take a look at this.. I remember reading something about feedback boost control, i.e closed loop control where it adjusts duty to achieve target boost plus a lot more, I think it's around the $1k mark though.. http://www.plex-tuning.com/products/...ost-controller

  14. #14
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    Thanks mate, yeah have seen that, very nice unit. But at 1k it's not in my "affordable" range for a street car

    Especially when you can purchase a second hand eb2 for two hundred bucks. Awesome unit though!

    That and a Davis traction control unit and your 9 shouldn't be far away.
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

  15. #15
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    If the eboost does not change duty cycle to correct boost pressure why do you set a target? I thought one of the features was boost correction at high rpm? My assumption(may be too assumptious) was when the eboost sensed the boost taper off it changed the duty cycle to try and maintain the boost pressure. The controller itself receives an input from the vacuum/boost line you run into it. Note - I run a gfb controller so my jargon may be different to the eboost.

    Also I have played with this a little by doing high gear low rpm pulls. E.g. from 2000rpm where boost is well bellow target. When I adjust sensitivity (gfb's version of rpm drop off), boost would start to jump up in stages to the desired boost. when I increased sensitivity the "jumps" got closer together.
    Last edited by Gaz097; 08-18-2015 at 11:21 PM.

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    The Gizzmo is apparently closed loop but wasn't exactly rock solid in my experience with them.

    I have a HKS EVC6 on one of my cars and they're actually pretty good. Boost is rock solid at what is commanded (you enter your desired boost and use and base offset value to get there). It has a heap of boost mapping functions, much like the eBoost. The instructions are in Japanese so some with struggle to use them!

  17. #17
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    You don't set a target boost with an eboost only a set point which is essentially the WGDC. Sensitivity affects how the EB2 responds to a change in pressure. But the EB2 does not know what the pressure it only sees the pressure fluctuating. So the gain/sensitivity setting affects the how rapidly the EB2 responds. Slow response boost dips under target, too high boost spikes over target.

    Are you using the RPM input into the EB2? If not you should. Running rpm set point mapping really makes the unit work well.
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

  18. #18
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    Sorry I am not running a eboost, I am running a go-fast-bits controller. It has no function for rpm input. With the GFB I set duty cycle then do a power run and it records peak boost, and then uses this as a set point. I then adjust gain and sensitivity around this.
    So far I cant fault it. Yeah it's not perfect but usually only out by 1 psi max even with a pretty aggressive gain setting. This variance is the hot and cold weather conditions etc. And basically if im feeling fussy I can remove this difference by gain adjustment.
    Last edited by Gaz097; 08-19-2015 at 12:05 AM.

  19. #19
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    Fair enough. Being able to compensate for changing conditions is the strong point with the factory system, providing its supporting a system that's mechanically within its limits


    IMHO the eboost's biggest failing is that you can't set a target boost of Xpsi and min/max for deviation and let it have at it.
    Last edited by hiddeous; 08-19-2015 at 12:31 AM.
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

  20. #20
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    Please email me this scrambled tune, as well as your stock tune. I have heard rumors of this, but have not seen the files first hand. I will see if I can come up with a work around.
    Eric Brooks
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