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Thread: New cam in my c7 where to start in the tuning process first

  1. #41
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    Really wish a Banish or someone like that would put out an intro to gen 5's for dummies just to get us gen 4 guys up to speed on the major differences
    Post a log and tune if you want help

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  2. #42
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    Really wish a Banish or someone like that would put out an intro to gen 5's for dummies just to get us gen 4 guys up to speed on the major differences
    the biggest difference is the fuel injection. there are torque based GenIV ecm's, torque based 4 cylinders, etc so that's not new. the direct injection and high pressure system are really what you need to know about. Injection timing, pulse width, fuel pressure(s).

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    the biggest difference is the fuel injection. there are torque based GenIV ecm's, torque based 4 cylinders, etc so that's not new. the direct injection and high pressure system are really what you need to know about. Injection timing, pulse width, fuel pressure(s).
    My latest question is.....is injection timing based on camshaft timing or...???
    2003 MY Z06 3.3 liter whipple ...sold at around 1000 rwhp
    wip 2015 Silverado w/2.9 Whipple (phase 1 completed) phase 2 in the works

  4. #44
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjw View Post
    My latest question is.....is injection timing based on camshaft timing or...???
    My easy recommendation is to leave SOI stock and only raise it (make it spray earlier) where needed to keep pulse width down but not raise it so much you are spraying out an open exhaust valve.

    I have found spraying as late as possible but still keep from spraying through the spark event is best at part throttle. You want to spray between EVC and spark but have enough time for the mixture to spread out/be in the best place for complete combustion.

    Again, leave it stock unless you are running out of fuel, you can gain some headroom by raising it strategically in the right airmass/RPM, which would be towards the bottom right corner of the table.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    My easy recommendation is to leave SOI stock and only raise it (make it spray earlier) where needed to keep pulse width down but not raise it so much you are spraying out an open exhaust valve.

    I have found spraying as late as possible but still keep from spraying through the spark event is best at part throttle. You want to spray between EVC and spark but have enough time for the mixture to spread out/be in the best place for complete combustion.

    Again, leave it stock unless you are running out of fuel, you can gain some headroom by raising it strategically in the right airmass/RPM, which would be towards the bottom right corner of the table.
    would that be stock for the vehicle with oem cam, or stock for the injectors (oem 6.2L), or stock for the lt4 cam that is now in the vehicle?

    thx again
    2003 MY Z06 3.3 liter whipple ...sold at around 1000 rwhp
    wip 2015 Silverado w/2.9 Whipple (phase 1 completed) phase 2 in the works

  6. #46
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rjw View Post
    would that be stock for the vehicle with oem cam, or stock for the injectors (oem 6.2L), or stock for the lt4 cam that is now in the vehicle?

    thx again
    the ultimate SOI value will depend on your EVC but the curve of the whole table where you are not at the earliest point (highest values) will depend on the airflow characteristics of your unique engine.

    I don't recommend it, but you could probably put the whole table at 300 and raise it only where you need more headroom at WOT up to around 350-360 and be just fine but not perfectly optimal and lose some of the control advantage of DI. what I am saying is, you won't notice a change in the middle of the table from 315 to 330 so don't worry about that as much, IMO.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    the ultimate SOI value will depend on your EVC but the curve of the whole table where you are not at the earliest point (highest values) will depend on the airflow characteristics of your unique engine.

    I don't recommend it, but you could probably put the whole table at 300 and raise it only where you need more headroom at WOT up to around 350-360 and be just fine but not perfectly optimal and lose some of the control advantage of DI. what I am saying is, you won't notice a change in the middle of the table from 315 to 330 so don't worry about that as much, IMO.
    Just watch out on having it inject too early especially where you spend the majority of your driving and engine running time - you'll wind up with fuel spraying on the walls and the piston rings and cylinders wearing prematurely - this is why GM replaced SO many 4 cylinders to begin with... I just wish they would go back to a standard injector setup - has to be cleaner since the engines won't burn oil as much or "self wear out" like they do now even in stock form... AND they could still do the torque biased setup since Ford has been doing this for years and even GM has had it for years... What exactly do they gain with the DI anyway?

    Higg's did you ever get a good way to tune in the dd tables - I know you made some pretty nice advancements on the Fords - just wondering if you figured anything out with the GM's?

    Thanks Higgs...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  8. #48
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    I think that I will try the lt4 soi tables. I didn't check the cam out, except for runout and lift. I read somewhere that it is 189/223 @ .050, .492/.551 (which I can attest to) 120 lobe separation. don't know when evc occurs ?

    the 5.3 tables inject a lot earlier at the low end and keep the cam at 0 till about 4k. As Higgs stated , the lt4 retards at 1k and in that mine has the blower and a point higher compression, I think that it might be wise to start out with the lt4 stuff, minus perhaps some timing

    any thoughts?

    thx
    2003 MY Z06 3.3 liter whipple ...sold at around 1000 rwhp
    wip 2015 Silverado w/2.9 Whipple (phase 1 completed) phase 2 in the works

  9. #49
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
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    I watch fuel pressure and adjust my SOI based on that and have had good luck

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Charles View Post
    I watch fuel pressure and adjust my SOI based on that and have had good luck
    can you elaborate on that?

    thx
    2003 MY Z06 3.3 liter whipple ...sold at around 1000 rwhp
    wip 2015 Silverado w/2.9 Whipple (phase 1 completed) phase 2 in the works

  11. #51
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
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    Do I search... I've talked about it before....

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  12. #52
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    ok , will do thx
    2003 MY Z06 3.3 liter whipple ...sold at around 1000 rwhp
    wip 2015 Silverado w/2.9 Whipple (phase 1 completed) phase 2 in the works

  13. #53
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Just watch out on having it inject too early especially where you spend the majority of your driving and engine running time - you'll wind up with fuel spraying on the walls and the piston rings and cylinders wearing prematurely - this is why GM replaced SO many 4 cylinders to begin with... I just wish they would go back to a standard injector setup - has to be cleaner since the engines won't burn oil as much or "self wear out" like they do now even in stock form... AND they could still do the torque biased setup since Ford has been doing this for years and even GM has had it for years... What exactly do they gain with the DI anyway?

    Higg's did you ever get a good way to tune in the dd tables - I know you made some pretty nice advancements on the Fords - just wondering if you figured anything out with the GM's?

    Thanks Higgs...
    what they gained is the ability to keep fuel in the cylinder rather than in the exhaust during overlap and the ability to burn more and waste less fuel at the expense of ultimate power production (but well within what the factory intends to make).

    after all the logging and editing, I decided a stock (GM) DD table is best. it can be massaged but the throttle seems to follow the pedal most accurately with a stock DD table (as long as 100% row isn't limiting which is usually isn't), an accurate Peak Torque table, and accurate MAF and VE tables. I didn't really get off on "extra power" mid throttle when it wasn't "real."

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    Really wish a Banish or someone like that would put out an intro to gen 5's for dummies just to get us gen 4 guys up to speed on the major differences
    i agree. i haven't got to mess with one yet, but i want to be ahead of the curve when it happens.

    When i first started learning, i bought the tuning school books. They were helpful for the first day or two until i realized there were way more helpful threads and better information on this forum....for free. I would buy some of their newer Ford and GenV stuff if i didn't think it would prove to be a waste of money.

    It really sucks not having a dyno....

  15. #55
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    Same. I ordered the tuning school books and Banish DVD's when I first started out and had learned enough before the tuning school stuff showed up to already disagree or question a good bit of what they had in there

    So.. not planning on buying anymore from them.

    Between Redline and Banish maybe they can come up with something that we can give them money for
    Post a log and tune if you want help

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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    Same. I ordered the tuning school books and Banish DVD's when I first started out and had learned enough before the tuning school stuff showed up to already disagree or question a good bit of what they had in there

    So.. not planning on buying anymore from them.

    Between Redline and Banish maybe they can come up with something that we can give them money for
    I have $3.00

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    what they gained is the ability to keep fuel in the cylinder rather than in the exhaust during overlap and the ability to burn more and waste less fuel at the expense of ultimate power production (but well within what the factory intends to make).

    after all the logging and editing, I decided a stock (GM) DD table is best. it can be massaged but the throttle seems to follow the pedal most accurately with a stock DD table (as long as 100% row isn't limiting which is usually isn't), an accurate Peak Torque table, and accurate MAF and VE tables. I didn't really get off on "extra power" mid throttle when it wasn't "real."
    Well if saving a little fuel at the cost of an entire motor is good, then DI is great I think it's funny that Toyota had to go back to a regular multiport setup to combat a lot of these issues that DI has created - just waiting for GM to make the move so we can start making some great power again while still benefitting from DI for cruise and part throttle while still using regular ol' multiport for power and wot... GM probably won't wake up and smell the coffee like other manufacturers have - took them long enough and had to have a third party chemical engine analysis company to come in to convince them that the carbon and oil consumption problems weren't due to crankcase ventilation issues on the motors - so who knows? Hopefully we'll see dual setups in the future - that would be really awesome

    As for the dd tables - I agree - most of the time they're not actually limiting, but even with a correctly calculated peak torque table via dyno pull readout and within 2% error MAF and VE tables, you still can wind up with overly sensitive dd tables - Don't know - I guess I really need to get trained by someone well trained on these platforms to understand everything that should be done to correct for these issues vs just making changes to the dd tables - but usually I will smooth them and dial them back a little in the lower engine load areas???

    Tuning school gen 5 books are worthless - don't bother with purchasing them They do have helpful hints into dialing in injection timing, but that's pretty much it and not touched on anywhere near enough... Looking forward to the "other" training material coming out if it's got anything detailed in it
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
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  18. #58
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    what do you mean by overly sensitive DD tables? like jumpy pedal response or something else?

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    jumpy pedal response - really bad with altitude - not that noticeable at all at lower altitudes...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  20. #60
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    jumpy pedal response - really bad with altitude - not that noticeable at all at lower altitudes...
    you might look at the variable cam settings instead of dd.