3.5 EcoBoost Advice?

[96gt4.6]

My guess may be, that this turbo is maxed from factory, could it be? Can you put there MBC for test?

It does not appear that this is the case, the 3.5L on the '15 is a carry over from the 2011-2014 pickups just in the aluminum body with a few small changes. 4-6 lbs over stock on boost should not be an issue. It has to be my inexperience that's the problem, i'm just not sure exactly what to do as i've poked at what we've been discussing on this thread but can't see to produce a result i'm after, that being a change in boost levels commanded/achieved.

Gotta love the learning curve, but that's why I enjoy this so much!

[murfie]

Under torque management> turbocharger you will find all the wastegate and TIP tables. For any one not seeing that I would suggest downloading latest version of suite.

You will have to do what bugasu said and play with the wastegate and TIP tables. Just manipulating torque input might give you faster boost and less drop off but not more. I would start with the wastegate DC(solenoid duty cycle) table if your goal is to raise boost. compressor output is what the turbo is trying to move and canister pressure is how much the wastegate is having applied to it to open. The more the waste gate is open the less boost the turbo will make. Raising values in this table should increase boost as long as you don't run into a over boost limit table which there looks like there is a few. Just think of it like the longer you keep boost away from the wastegate with duty cycles the more the turbo will build. Looks like its shooting for up to 30PSI but the wastegate has a a max of 19.5-20 psi of boost stock. If you want more than that you are going to need to change the canister scale and probably the spring in the waste gate. When boost raises the Exhaust pressure to a point the spring cant hold the valve shut. The EBC can usually double what the spring is rated at before that happens. It looks like the speed density should be able to handle up to 30psi. But if it causes you an issue you should disable your cylair anticipation. you can think of cylair filter as the intake flow model and anticipation as it comparing what the MAF/MAP says to what it thinks it should be to make sure MAF/MAP isn't way off which it will be if you hold the waste gate shut. You will still have the cylair filter so it should be fine. Best to do more research about what other tuners are finding as the limit to the amount of boost you can increase over stock. If the values in the stock tune are correct while under boost it takes a minimum of .85 duty cycle to close the waste gate fully other wise boost will be already acting on the waste gate to open it. from that you can see they try to give you a nice smooth delivery of boost that slowly drops off. You could easily make it feel like a shot of nitrous, but you might want to leave some of that gradual boost build up for smooth power delivery.

Not sure what kind of solenoid your vehicle has on it, but if its a two port raising the dutycyle can also help the spring holding the wastegate shut when boost levels approach the non electronic boost controlled WG limit. you usually have a restriction pill for this specific purpose but the duty cycles can also help if your solenoid isnt too cheaply made and can handle being used more. Actually looks like there is a DC vs canister pressure table that automatically does this. If its a three port it replaces the T between the solenoid and the waste gate so the solenoid has complete control over where the pressure is directed and you usually want it to direct it into the intake until the last possible moment. Looking at the stock tables and knowing most stock vehicles have two port solenoids because its cheaper I would say that's what you have. Both types work very well when utilized correctly. Just be aware of boost creep which is a spike of boost that comes from the waste gate not opening instantly.

looking at these tables makes me miss having a turbo. Just 4 more lbs of boost and reducing the amount boost dropped off while reducing spool up time was enough to make the car feel like an entirely different car. (my STI)

TIP is not boost but turbo inlet pressure. that is the intake side of the turbo. The max value is 85inmg because at max boost air will be pulled in very fast and if you close the TB there will be a air pressure spike until the BOV can deal with it. Turbo airflow or compressor outlet is boost. Just like BOV is blow off valve and also compressor bypass valve is blow off valve. The difference being one is recirculating the other vents to atmosphere.

[96gt4.6]

Thanks murfie!

I will begin to study the Turbocharger tables and see if I can poke a bit to get the numbers to move. These trucks, to my knowledge, do not require any type of waste gate modification/spring change to achieve greater boost. In stock form, they are easily capable of 4-6 psi above the stock 14 psi boost level. The boost tables in the tune are mis leading in a way, they may say 30 psi, but that's before subtracting the BARO reading of 15 psi.

TIP on Eco's is truly Throttle Inlet Pressure, at least that's what it's described as by Ford, and in the VCM Scanner. The '15 3.5's have a TIP (located in front of the throttle body on the throttle inlet tube) and a MAP (conventionally located in the intake manifold). The ECU will shoot a desired TIP and MAP reading. It can also keep the MAP reading in check to help prevent boost spikes by closing/opening the TB under boost even though Driver Demand is kept at Wide Open Throttle. It's a very cool system.

I'm pretty confident I could get more boost by playing with the waste gate settings, however up until this point it's been my understanding the computer will try and back it down by closing the TB more to keep the TIP and MAP at desired levels. Therefore, my experimentation up to this point has been focused on getting the Desired TIP up from 29 psi (14 lbs boost -stock-) to 15-16 lbs of boost. From what i'm understanding that process requires asking for more Load/Torque, vs. modifying the gate settings to get the boost up.

This motor is a carry over from the 2011-14 F150's less the ECU's programming. My research has indicated that adding up to 4 psi of boost with nothing more than a tune, is entirely possible based off of tunes from '11-14's i've been studying.

I'm almost to the point of simply buying a handheld, hoping it's not a locked tune, reading it and then re-selling it for a loss just so I can see what parameters have been modified and start my learning process. This can't possibly be that hard.....i'm just not paying close enough attention or simply over looking what's being told to me.

I will review this thread in it's entirety, jot down some notes, and make sure i'm proceeding properly, as well as poke a little at the turbo settings.

Thanks for the continued input guys!!

[murfie]

The tune I was looking at was a stock 2015 f150 3.5 from the repository. It had the desired TIP disabled.I did not see this switch in your first picture. It did have a MAP sensor. I do not see any limit to 14 psi except for the maybe combustion stability that could get be a mode switch and the wastegate DC. under engine diag there is a overboost monitor switch that is enabled. Everything else points at you should be able to get to 20psi before hitting another limit. Even torque tables are much higher than driver demand gets to.

[96gt4.6]

The tune I was looking at was a stock 2015 f150 3.5 from the repository. It had the desired TIP disabled.I did not see this switch in your first picture. It did have a MAP sensor. I do not see any limit to 14 psi except for the maybe combustion stability that could get be a mode switch and the wastegate DC. under engine diag there is a overboost monitor switch that is enabled. Everything else points at you should be able to get to 20psi before hitting another limit. Even torque tables are much higher than driver demand gets to.

Correct, that drop down enabler is to force a desired TIP, I could simply enable it and type in my desired TIP/scale the turbo airflow table to get what I want, but that's a roundabout way to do it and in my opinion not correct. It would essentially lock the tip to a fixed pressure no matter the operating conditions unlike whatever method it currently uses to calculate TIP. You will see there is also a Wastegate Dyno Enable drop down, which is another one that's only used for specific purposes much like the force desired TIP:



As far as boost levels, these run 14 psi stock. The factory boost gauge goes to 20 psi, and the truck sits about 1/4 away from that on the gauge. Taking actual MAP pressure on a pull minus the BARO pid = 14 psi as well on the scanner. Desired TIP is 29 psi.

To get more boost, we need to get Desired TIP up, this is how it has to work. To get desired TIP up we need to command more load by scaling the load v. torque tables, but I've had no luck there so maybe this methodology isn't correct either. I agree, if you command more TQ it should command more load which should in turn change TIP.

Here's the catch. If you look back on my posts, no matter what I change the driver demand table to, it never commands that value. Ever. Something, some limiter which I am over looking, is holding the commanded TIP back. After I get that, it will be all about moving some of the limiters in the turbocharger tab up more as i'll be close to or hitting them.

On the 2015's, the only sensors are the TIP (Throttle Inlet Pressure/Temperature) and the MAP located on top of the manifold (not pictured due to engine cover). There are no sensors in any of the charge tubes both before or after the turbo compressor, and the wiring schematics only list those two sensors.



I was very happy about moving the Combustion Stability Limit table up, that's a big difference when foot braking! No longer is the commanded TIP moving down like it was while power braking, much better! Now, if I could just get a little more boost under WOT!

[murfie]

Looks just like a MAF sensor. Your definition of TIP is more accurate. I had the placement in my head wrong. The principal behind a MAF and TIP are the same just one is scaled for higher than atmospheric pressure scenarios.

I've always looked at it as three parts. Your throttle pedal, the ecu, and the engine. Your throttle tells the ecu what to do. The ecu translates and tells the engine what to do. The throttle talks to the ecu in torque and the ecu translates in rpm/ load. You can either change what the pedal says or change what the ecu says. The final result will be the same. Since getting the proper torque values of the engine with out spending hours on a dyno is not easy to come by I usually stick to changing what the ecu is telling the engine. Logging and modifying will be much easier than torque calculations.

So under engine diag(this at the top next to engine) I would either disable over boost protection or raise the limit in the tables there. Why they hide these tables there and not just put then under the under/over boost category I don't know. Then I would modify the waste gate settings. The only thing I would change is the wheel torque error value. That way you avoid the wrench light coming on.

[96gt4.6]

I did not see the over boost under engine Diag so I will have a look when i'm back on the truck. However, it should be noted i'm not hitting any type of over boost limiters or getting any DTC's for setting Over Boost and my Commanded TIP values match the actual TIP values during data logs, so briefly looking at those tables they shouldn't be coming into play (yet!).

Playing with the waste gate settings should produce more boost, no doudt, which would then start making these thresholds in the over boost section become active. So at that time, I would have to modify them, correct.

But, I want to try and be as accurate as possible, on tuning these trucks is the 'proper' method playing with waste gate to get more boost regardless of desired TIP and turning up the overboost limiters, OR commanding more TQ (how I haven't figured out) to get the desired TIP up in the first place.

[murfie]

I don't see it as one way is more proper than the other. You just might find one way easier to figure out. Both ways a will get the engine to do the same thing. The only proper way to tune is knowing the engines limits and not p pushing them past that. Usually you can gauge that by what other tuners have accomplished with out blowing up their engine. You seem to have done some research into this already. Now it's just figuring out the tuning software and which side of the ecu you want to deal with. The throttle pedal and torque or the engine sensors and load. Yes you can choose both if you want to get into it that deep. One or the other should accomplish what you want and both will be safe with exercising proper tuning procedures. You already demonstrated that when you said lower the ignition timing values.

Researching these trucks makes me really want one. 12.5 1/4 mile with just a tune. That's insane. No idea out side of turbo diesels that trucks have come so far.

[96gt4.6]

Got ya. And yes, you are right, I'm maybe trying to re-invent the wheel here on which method is the best, or most correct as I put it.

In the past, not fooling the sensors and raising limits has been the method I've employed so i'm trying to adhere to that methodology as best possible, but i'm also very green on Ford tuning, and completely green on EcoBoost tuning. Boost tuning, not as much as I've had many GEN 3 boosted Chevy setups I've built and tuned, however this TQ based engine control system (which i'm told Chevy has went to as well now) is more difficult for me to grasp.

I think the biggest thing for me at this point is that to even poke at the Ford's there is a substantial wait time of 3-4 minutes to write (NOT complaining, i'm pleased to be able to even tune my truck and Coyote swapped Marauder!). Experimenting, takes a lot more time on this guy. And yes, i'm very cautious. Lots of logging, turn the timing down in case my poking has produced more boost, ect. I have no issue with the timing source/mapped points/trans tuning or AFR set point, a lot of that I picked up back when I did my Coyote swap on the Marauder, but the boost controls on this Eco are really killing me......

I'll continue to press onward! I'm pleased with what i've gained so far by removing the combustion stability limiters, that's a good one for boost launches and power braking!

[murfie]

rereading what you have done and looking over the tune completely. As I first said I don't think you can get the boost up with torque request. As soon as boost starts to build duty cycles fall off and fast. The duty cycles are based on TIP and pressure the WG sees and don't seem to have a relationship to torque except through the requested TIP. Even if you get it to request more TIP as soon as the engine starts to boost the duty cycles will drop and you wont get more boost. You will only get a more sensitive pedal. If you want to be safe and test this zero out the wastegate DC table and you will see only the amount of boost what ever the stock spring is rated for. Of course you will have to disable under-boost by setting it to 0 duty cycles and you will see the stock WG spring rate for boost.

From there you know what to do with it.

[caniggia]

What will happen when wastegate DC will be maxed?

[murfie]

Well you will run into a limit before that happens. If you increase all the limits and the engine and turbo stay together you will reach a point of exhaust pressure that the spring can not hold the waste gate shut and the pressure from the exhaust side will force it open. usually this is around double what the spring is rated for it depends on the waste gate canister design. If you told the solenoid to not let the waste gate see any boost ever this would be the physical limit and you are basically just plugging the reference tube and better off not using a solenoid. This is not advised or a good idea. If you need that much boost you need to replace the spring in the waste gate.

[96gt4.6]

10-4 fellas, i'll poke around at what we've discussed and report back!

[roastin300]

10-4 fellas, i'll poke around at what we've discussed and report back!

Very interesting discussion, and thanks for the information. I am having issues with my 3.0 software pulling the tune off of my 13 F150 ecoboost. I also have many tunes from vendors I was wanting to look at. they were loaded with the SCT Livewire, but I should be able to load them with that, and then pull the calibration with HPTuners correct? I did pull the factory calibration using HPTuners Beta software a while back, before I implemented the SCT Device. But now, even if I try reverting to stock using the SCT and try pulling the stock tune using HPTuners 3.0, an error pops up, it times out. I hope the SCT device did not make it so HPTuners cannot read even the factory calibration.

But once this issue is resolved, I will be diligently working on tuning this platform. I will report back in this thread as I progress, so we can all provide feedback.

This platform is soooo much different than the LS based platforms I tune regularly on the side.

[rshoe09]

a few people have actually had problems reading files
probably just a bug with the new 3.0
be sure to download the newest version regularly

[roastin300]

a few people have actually had problems reading files
probably just a bug with the new 3.0
be sure to download the newest version regularly

I downloaded it about a week ago...are they really updating it that regularly? I will try that again tonight. I have tech support helping me. They requested screen shot of the error, and a VCM Suite Info under the help tab, you save it as a .txt so I sent that...now I am just waiting back from them.

[murfie]

Updates daily

[roastin300]

Ya I just looked and realized I am running 3.0.14 and the most recent is 3.0.18

He asked me for a debug.dat file for this issue. I will try downloading the most recent software and also work on getting him this file. Hopefully it works, because I will have alot of aftermarket tune data to look through...with the SCT canned tunes, over 10 tunes.

[96gt4.6]

By all means, please post a few of them when you can get it to read, I'd love to thumb through them as an aid to my predicament and see what may or may not apply to my '15 OS.

I know we've beat this horse to death, but i'd REALLY like to see what the commanded TQ looks like on an SCT tuned EB as well as the Desired TIP they are running on their 91/Performance/Tow tunes.

[roastin300]

By all means, please post a few of them when you can get it to read, I'd love to thumb through them as an aid to my predicament and see what may or may not apply to my '15 OS.

I know we've beat this horse to death, but i'd REALLY like to see what the commanded TQ looks like on an SCT tuned EB as well as the Desired TIP they are running on their 91/Performance/Tow tunes.

Ya sure thing, I definitely will. These are the tunes I have:

SCT tunes - I think there is 3 or 6 of them, I ran one for a day and swapped it because it wasnt great
Vendor #1 - 87 PERFORMANCE STREET, 87 TOWING STREET, 91 PERFORMANCE RACE (have 2 additional revisions for the 91 performance race tune)
Vendor #2 - 87 PERFORMANCE, 91 TOWING, 91 PERFORMANCE