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Thread: The E85 Thread

  1. #1
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    The E85 Thread

    Gentlemen!

    I'm surprised there isn't already a dedicated thread to E85 tuning techniques for our cars, so lets start one

    Though there are probably only a handfull of guys tuning with E85 in here, with the corn juice becoming more available we could all benefit from experience had by others.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner JETURBO's Avatar
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    Well why don't you start it off then
    FG F6 400+RWKW .....10.9 @ 132mph.... FIRST 10sec F6 in SA ( sold )
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    My contribution
    Caltex E85 around 74% ethanol
    United E85 around 85% ethanol
    Tune with actual data not simulated data!.....Applied Road/track Tuning

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    Things to consider
    Ignition timing with Ethanol
    When programming ignition timing in the conventional manner, identifying the detonation threshold and applying the ignition timing accordingly however given the ability of ethanol to increase ignition timing before hitting the knock threshold with ethanol fuel does this create a situation where maximum cylinder pressure is achieved before the optimum ATDC piston/crankshaft position potentially causing engine damage and a loss of power given there has been no indication of knock.
    Tune with actual data not simulated data!.....Applied Road/track Tuning

  5. #5
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    Detonation threshold is a big one Yortt, I found this when using toluene. You can advance timing and make good power, but can also keep going and lose power while still not having encountered knock.

    From an injector caling perspective, given the extra consumption of E85, we would have to have a "starting" multiplication eg: 30% ?

    How are the battery voltage offsets affected, if at all?

    What are we targetting as a good stoich afr?

    We are all keen to hear some of your experiences Jeturbo

  6. #6
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    I would not worry about Jets advice.
    There are a few forums out there where great tuners have given detailed advice on E85 tuning. Best thing you can do is go internet surfing to build up your E85 tuning knowledge.

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    I have not done an E85 falcon yet. I have a Turbo LS1 running on E85 and this took a lot of trial and error/fudging to get to the point where it started like a standard petrol car at all coolant temperatures and behaved as expected with drivability and at WOT so E85 can achieve petrol like function/drivability.

    However untill the Australian Ford 2.25 scanner has basic functions working It would be a wast of time trying.
    Tune with actual data not simulated data!.....Applied Road/track Tuning

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    LOL turbotrana, spot on

    There are other forums definitely. If only the Falcon forums were as helpful as the Subaru or Chev guys in the states. The amount of open source info is amazing.

    Even if someone had a compare file they could post up. We could compare between an unleaded 98 and E85 and talk about the differences and why.

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner JETURBO's Avatar
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    Trana is still pissy because I wouldn't tell him the E85 secret years ago but dropped heaps of riddles and the two short planks still couldn't work it out hahahaha sux to be old hey terry

    There's heaps of info out there and i mean HEAPS but no ones going to just give it to you....if you ask specific questions with your own data to back up a conclusion no one will hesitate to help or point you in a direction, people must make the effort for their own stimulating capacity bare minimum lol

    The more you investigate the more it becomes obvious

    If you're still waiting for this scanner you must be the most patient person in the world
    FG F6 400+RWKW .....10.9 @ 132mph.... FIRST 10sec F6 in SA ( sold )
    DYNO DYNAMICS 1200hp ...... Tuning weapon..... ( sold )
    OFFICIAL JONNY TIG INDUSTRIES SUPPLIER ..... Biggest and lightest intercoolers for B and F falcons
    SUBARU BRZ ......AVO TURBO KIT coming......soon
    VF R8 CLUBSPORT SV...... 340FWKW.....ASE BIG SINGLE KIT .....one day

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    If you're still waiting for this scanner you must be the most patient person in the world[/QUOTE]

    In my opinion the ford knock logging is superior to any aftermarket system because of the accuracy of the factory knock detection calibration, so as an optimist even though a disillusioned one, i am still hoping that the 2.25 is usable soon also because of the apparent much faster logging rate.
    Tune with actual data not simulated data!.....Applied Road/track Tuning

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    I hope when you get old Jet, then you may understand the definition of "annoying" cause us old people don't have the time or brain cells to work out phucking "riddles".Sasha, I don't have a good file I could put up. I played with E85 for a couple of months but got sick of the smell and going to the pump station 10 times a week cause when you get old you just CBF. But it is still a good exercise to go thru to sharpen your tuning skills.

    It is quite easy to get started. On the first fill of E85 you need to bear in mind how much 98 you have in there. I basically start the car with the standard 14.7 stoich, then when it stalls the only change to the tune is to change the stoich down to 9.8 if it is really empty but around 11 if it had a little 98 fuel in it. So you flash it at the service station. On the second tank I would put the stoich down to 9.8. The fuel has a very wide air/fuel ratio operating range so does not matter how far the tune is out, it will run fine.
    Its only cold starts that will cause an issue. The injector data that you use for 98 should be good for E85( if they are dialed in good for 98.). For cold starts you need to increase fuel. Don't worry about timing at this point, but can take alot more. Just concentrate on drivability and cold starts initially.

    Cause I'm old, thats all I remember about my E85 tuning.
    Last edited by turbotrana; 12-13-2015 at 08:46 PM.

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    “I am not young enough to know everything.”
    ― Oscar Wilde
    Tune with actual data not simulated data!.....Applied Road/track Tuning

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    You will find E85 behaves differently to 98 (Jets gonna say 'der'). For example with 98 when you lean it out on cruise (16+:1) you will get a lean misfire . Where as with E85 you don't get the lean misfire, you just get a reduction in power. Understanding these behavioural differences is important, esp under load.
    Best thing you can do is just play around with it cruising around and moderate acceleration and leave understanding the timing map side of it till last and internet surf. So much good info out there.

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    Attached is a Stoich calculator I put together then I started playing with E85. Input in the Aqua Cells the ltrs of E85 (based on a 68ltr full fill sedan tank) and the ethanol content of the E85 (if you cannot measure just use .85) The output in the green cell will tell you tank percentage and the "e blend stoich" green cell will tell you Stoich for the Fuel.

    If anyone wants to use this for a ute let me know and I can amend the formula for the larger tank.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6tuq66fj4...oich.xlsm?dl=0

    Edit: couldn't attach the file, link above.
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

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    No problems tuning mine with E85, it drives like a stocker with a fuck load of power. Cold start isn't an issue, got that sorted. The only draw back is the stench of the burnt fuel, it has a very unique odour. I can get anywhere from 10-25l/100km per tank depending on driving style. I use the local servo to get my E85, is consistently 85-87% ethanol content using a test tube test method. I'll flick to back 98 after 5 odd tanks of E85, use one tank, then go back to E85.

    Injector Dynamics have a table to calculate stoich ratio depending on ethanol content.

    The only 'problem' with this fuel is being able to exceed the mechanical componentry of the stock engine. What's the limit of the stock engine, 500-550rwkw?
    Last edited by Romulus; 12-13-2015 at 09:49 PM.

  16. #16
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    Yeah stimulating riddles aren't my thing either mate. I get enough of that from my 5 year old
    So to get started you don't even have to scale the high and low slopes....Just change the Stoich AFR and it should fire up no dramas?

  17. #17
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    Wah wah wah box of tissues ladies or what ?

    You start a thread to what can only now be see as " just tell me how to do it " and i say blow it out ur arse and use your brain and have an educated think and then ask a direct question, i asked for you to start the thread in whatever way you seen the direction of it going and then it's the sooks on .....

    I've help a bunch of blokes out on here with all sorts of questions and I've ignored a bunch more, without getting far to "cryptic" can you guess who's had help ?

    Maybe the ones who have had a go and some data to back up their question....i have NFI why this comes across as me just "picking" on people i mean seriously how interested are people when it comes across as "just give me the answer" it's "to hard to think"

    Being a part of a technical forum doesn't have to be so boring, lighten up a bit ladies

    Now to be sooooo helpful for anyone contemplating E85 tuning on the falcon here goes ....

    1 it's imperative to have the wide band re set/re scaled to fresh air first if it's been used or permanent fixed to your car like alot of us would have ( fairly easy procedure to do and it's apart of any initial install process )

    2 it's going to block up your filters with crap from 98 fuel and in the tank quickly so have a few spares

    3 have a pre determined "calculated" outlook on what you think should happen

    4 leaving the stock timing scale on E85 in a no no so don't listen to trana there

    To go into this a slight bit further and terry should know this and anyone tuning for a specific fuel should to but we rate fuels in octane levels 01/95/98/p100/E85

    What do we know about octane levels and cylinder events ?

    What do we know about cylinder events and EGT's

    This will point you in a direction why you don't do what terry has said and for reasons coupled with why we actually tune an engine to suit a fuel

    If it all didn't matter why would we bother ?

    Happy thinking pumpkins
    FG F6 400+RWKW .....10.9 @ 132mph.... FIRST 10sec F6 in SA ( sold )
    DYNO DYNAMICS 1200hp ...... Tuning weapon..... ( sold )
    OFFICIAL JONNY TIG INDUSTRIES SUPPLIER ..... Biggest and lightest intercoolers for B and F falcons
    SUBARU BRZ ......AVO TURBO KIT coming......soon
    VF R8 CLUBSPORT SV...... 340FWKW.....ASE BIG SINGLE KIT .....one day

  18. #18
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    Do you guys prefer E85 with orange juice or just a slice of lime?
    04 Velocity MKII M6 & 06 BF F6 555 ZF6

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    To get started all you need to do is change stoich AFR. Scaling data should stay the same. But in saying that alot of aftermarket injectors installs have wrong scalling to begin with. Just take it a step at a time and no WOT untill you really understand what is going on. Moderate acceleration like 1/2 throttle, low revs wont hurt anything. Having enough injector/pump goes without saying. Jet didn't beat around the bush by giving direct advice on changing fuel filters. No riddles there.

  20. #20
    Im only a beginner and have not touched e85 in a falcon but I found it interesting when I pulled the tune out of my ve ss wagon that all the flex fuel e85 stuff was all in there even though the car did not have the ethanol sensor. It was interesting to see how e85 is handled from oem perspective. It may help to look through one of these to get a bit of an idea.