The E85 Thread

[Yortt]

The question is, is the optimum fuel and timing developed on a dyno the same as it is in the real world enviroment, the new scanner can now answer this.

[IH8TOADS]

Struth Peppy. Stock motor with the aggressive timing? You wonder why the tuner wouldn't just throw another few psi in, 18 isn't exactly a lot.

[JETURBO]

Yortt we don't invest over 50k on a tool if it couldn't do a job it was intended to do

I do know what you're trying to say and I've done so much of both street tuning and dyno tuning i can tell you now that the gains you see on the dyno are nearly never seen on the street especially when it gets to the finer points of tuning

Even if you run the strictest of repeating a method on the street you still have to many variables to account for

Using a quality calibrated tool clearly makes sense and the fact any half respectable workshop has one is not just for the hell of it, it's for a reason ...

E85 will take timing very differently from other fuels and can get away with being "lazier" as it's threshold is bigger but there's still basic tuning methods to use and results per change
You just won't see this on the street because the "Bum o meter" isn't that calibrated lol

It's quite clear so many workshops are still not understanding what's going on with E85 on the turbo falcon as the damage rate is becoming mind blowing and even in little old SA I'm having a full plate fixing common head lift issues from one premium workshop and it's the same stuff each time ..... Laziness

the last E85 car i did made more power on

Less fuel
Less timing
Less boost

And a car that feel heaps better mannered and no damage

Go figure hey, more is not always more

[Romulus]

Those figures you guys are throwing around are way to much as toads as mentioned

You need to start using a dyno as you are clearly not seeing where your gains per degree are running out

Get back to basics boys .... Maximum torque for minimum timing !!

I did, hence the 474rwkw and a %$#$ load of midrange. Peak torque between 3250 and 5250 rpm, I'd say that's a broad torque range.

Still running the factory cat back exhaust. Tuned on E85.

Bearings on the rollers need replacing hence the squiggly top end.

[Yortt]

Jet
Well we will have to agree to disagree, from my experience at the drag strip data log and trimming a dyno only tune will net gains as determined by quarter mile times.
If “lifting heads” is an issue which you have indicated it is, then checking the knock threshold can now be determined accurately with the new scanner.

[Gaz097]

Out of interest Jet are the cars making the same power at the same RPM? Or higher in the rpm range?

[Huddo]

how would you get accurate timing at say 4000 rpm on the street or the track?

[Yortt]

how would you get accurate timing at say 4000 rpm on the street or the track?

By tracking the knock threshold.

[turbotrana]

By tracking the knock threshold.

As the Riddler says, you really need a dyno to determine a window where you want timing to be.
Long story but 500hp turbo red motor where it was determined via dyno that 28 degrees is where it stops making power on 98 and you could go past 28deg where power would drop but still no knock.

[Yortt]

As the Riddler says, you really need a dyno to determine a window where you want timing to be.
Long story but 500hp turbo red motor where it was determined via dyno that 28 degrees is where it stops making power on 98 and you could go past 28deg where power would drop but still no knock.

An alternate view

When you tuned on the dyno did you log it at the track and compare it for required fuel delivery and knock? Because i feel your summation above may well be very different in a track enviroment. Easy to determine, you now have all you need to check it for yourself.
Identifying the window where you want timing to be is accurately available through the scanner particularly with the substantial frame rates Hp Tuners scanner now has.

First, you need to check your tune at the track if the logged information duplicates the Dyno information then I am wrong and you leave the tune as is nothing gained nothing lost.
Second, if indeed the fuel delivery is different or there is knock then there are gains to be had.

Check the web out there is now information available on the topic.

This is a link which I think goes back to 2004 he was a popular motoring journalist at the time.
http://blog.autospeed.com/2005/12/04...t-on-the-road/
http://blog.autospeed.com/2004/08/15...to-do-testing/

AND REMEMBER DON'T SHOOT THE MESSENGER!

[Huddo]

By tracking the knock threshold.

but this is not accurate,
on many cars, taking it to where it pings and backing it off can be way too much advance, let alone factoring knock sensors not being accurate

[Yortt]

but this is not accurate,
on many cars, taking it to where it pings and backing it off can be way too much advance, let alone factoring knock sensors not being accurate

You say "but this is not accurate," can I ask why?

"taking it to where it pings and backing it off can be way too much advance" Not at very low knock levels when transitioning on the road/track and thats all that is needed to determing the knock threshold location.

"let alone factoring knock sensors not being accurate" again why do you say this?

[turbotrana]

It has been a general rule as long as I can remember tuning (when we had points distributors ) to advance till it pinked and then back off a few degrees. That is all we knew and all we could do in the absense of measuring tools.
Now in the case of 98 fuel, this would work OK in most cases. However with E85 it does not work, in most cases it wont make any noises before it starts dropping off power.

And then now we have the head lifting issues with E85 and we want to keep advance to a minimum so we want to find the trade off point where hp per degree of advance/fuel ratio vs chances of head lifting relationship needs to be determined and this can only be done on the dyno.

[JETURBO]

I never thought I'd see the day but terry is bang on correct

Now use the information in this thread and come back with some "interesting" results lads

[Huddo]

You say "but this is not accurate," can I ask why?

"taking it to where it pings and backing it off can be way too much advance" Not at very low knock levels when transitioning on the road/track and thats all that is needed to determing the knock threshold location.

"let alone factoring knock sensors not being accurate" again why do you say this?

Turbotrana pretty much answered it thanks and Jet confirmed it thanks also

[Yortt]

It has been a general rule as long as I can remember tuning (when we had points distributors ) to advance till it pinked and then back off a few degrees. That is all we knew and all we could do in the absense of measuring tools.
Now in the case of 98 fuel, this would work OK in most cases. However with E85 it does not work, in most cases it wont make any noises before it starts dropping off power.

And then now we have the head lifting issues with E85 and we want to keep advance to a minimum so we want to find the trade off point where hp per degree of advance/fuel ratio vs chances of head lifting relationship needs to be determined and this can only be done on the dyno.

For those that have concluded it can only be done on the dyno I respect that conclusion and it is not for me to convince otherwise.

For others that may not have a conclusive opinion, Datalog Datalog Datalog Measure, Capture View & Analize and as Jet says "Now use the information in this thread and come back with some "interesting" results lads"

[Huddo]

Data logging will not always show what you need to know

[Yortt]

Data logging will not always show what you need to know

Can you tell me what data logging can not show what you need to know?

[Huddo]

minimum spark to achieve the best torque at a given rpm, as mentioned you will need a dyno to do that, roadtesting, track ect will not do it

[Yortt]

minimum spark to achieve the best torque at a given rpm, as mentioned you will need a dyno to do that, roadtesting, track ect will not do it

In the pcm the engineers have intergrated the ability to monitor torque for detailed management purposes, this pid is available to be logged.
The objective is to move a mass (the car) over a give distance in the shortest possible time.
This includes gear changes which covers variable engine loading.