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Thread: AEM 30-0300 Wideband with direct CAN integration W/ VCMScanner. Need beta testers.

  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    One in the ECM, one at some unspecified non-obvious location somewhere between TCM & DLC. I figured based on function that it would be as close to the DLC as feasible, but it's not.

    Attachment 106378

    So there's no components in the -0334's connector I need to be concerned with? Meaning I also don't have to be concerned about the location of the vehicle's existing DLC-end terminating resistor - as long as I do a proper splice* near the back of the DLC it'll be okay?

    *Scotch-locks, right? (kidding! )
    i have my obd going into two pass through then into splitter for ngauge and to passenger side for easy hpt connection then back to factory location, it all works fine

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by 07GTS View Post
    im using 2 aem x series obd2 and if u want to configure them to work on the ngauge and hpt logging thru canbus u will need the adjustability within the gauge, it took a while to find the right address and pid numbers that both hpt and ngauge would read at the same time, i just mounted the gauges in the glove box out of sight but so i can still check on them or make changes if i have to easily,
    Care to share the ngauge config?

  3. #543
    Senior Tuner TheMechanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    One in the ECM, one at some unspecified non-obvious location somewhere between TCM & DLC. I figured based on function that it would be as close to the DLC as feasible, but it's not.

    Attachment 106378

    So there's no components in the -0334's connector I need to be concerned with? Meaning I also don't have to be concerned about the location of the vehicle's existing DLC-end terminating resistor - as long as I do a proper splice* near the back of the DLC it'll be okay?

    *Scotch-locks, right? (kidding! )
    what make model and year. I tell you where the terminating resistor is. Some will Under the vehicle, above the left rear shock absorber

  4. #544
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMechanic View Post
    what make model and year. I tell you where the terminating resistor is. Some will Under the vehicle, above the left rear shock absorber
    2006 Envoy 5.3L.

    The only search hits in eSI for 'TERMINATING' is the 'Scan Tool Does Not Communicate...' diagnostic, which only calls out 'near the DLC', and #PIT3744A:
    Inspect the GMLAN terminating resistor located several inches from the Data Link Connector. Further inspection at or near the adjustable pedal bracket or steering column area may reveal a bare end of the terminating resistor visible. Movement of the adjustable pedal assembly can cause damage to the tape and subsequent shorting to ground of the communication circuit. Protect the resistor and reroute to prevent further contact of the terminating resistor to ground. Refer to eSI Document ID # 1454971 for the Data Link Connector on V8 Engines.
    (#1454971 is the img attached above)

    I am only trying to make sure it won't make a difference if the AEM is connected before or after the resistor - since I haven't been able to locate it where they say it should be, I'd have to assume that it's going to connect after the resistor. I hate assuming anything.

  5. #545
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    Bottom line is. There is no resistor in the 30-0334 harness. So, if your setup works without a 30-0334, it should work WITH a 30-0334.
    No need to worry about where the terminating resistors are.

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by sevinn View Post
    Care to share the ngauge config?
    ngauge make sure u have the latest update, in the aem settings i used for bank 1 ECU 6 & PID 3 and bank 2 ECU 7 & PID 4 this in mine was able to read and use with both the hpt and ngauge at same time

  7. #547
    Senior Tuner TheMechanic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    2006 Envoy 5.3L.

    The only search hits in eSI for 'TERMINATING' is the 'Scan Tool Does Not Communicate...' diagnostic, which only calls out 'near the DLC', and #PIT3744A:
    (#1454971 is the img attached above)

    I am only trying to make sure it won't make a difference if the AEM is connected before or after the resistor - since I haven't been able to locate it where they say it should be, I'd have to assume that it's going to connect after the resistor. I hate assuming anything.
    On the Envoy it is about 6 inches down the DLC harness. the second 120 ohm terminating resistor is in the ECM. s-l640.jpg

  8. #548
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Hey Dr. Mike, have a question for you, regarding the firmware (Analog Outputs) on these AEM devices. Since you've seen the code, do you see anything with a delay with Analog Outputs? I've noticed they work right away when cold/first start, but I get a 2-10min delay on a warm start, after shutting off for only a couple minutes. CAN and the Screen start right away every time but the analogs do not. Verified with voltmeter. The measurements when working, at ambient air is around 0.4v, this is a working Analog output. When it's not starting up/working, it is down around 0.00-0.11v.

    Because of this, I'm trying to use CAN OBDII output on a Megasquirt, but those are only setup for AEM-Net. Unrelated, just wondering if there's something you can do about the Analog Output delay? Very strange.

    I have your 0300, flashed to the newer OBDII CAN code, and I bought a newer one, 0334 already had the OBDII code. They both act the same way. Is there something with the O2 sensor that could cause a delay? In the house on the bench, I got a reading pretty quick after power on, multiple times on a new unused sensor.

    I've noticed this for years, since using the Analog Outputs on these AEM's. Always a large, 2+ minute delay on a warm start. Today in the driveway I decided to start investigating, by swapping between both AEM's onto the car+02 sensor, I couldn't get either of them to show Analogs after 5+ minutes of running. Then I cut the Analog output wires and wired direct to voltmeter, and still, no voltage after 3-4 minutes, powering off, on, over and over, yet display and CAN work fine. Put the wires back to the MS3x analog inputs, waited about 10-15mins inside, came out, and sure enough. 190seconds after startup, Analogs started working.


    https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewt...?f=122&t=74549
    Last edited by 10_SS; 03-12-2021 at 01:19 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  9. #549
    Tuning Addict blindsquirrel's Avatar
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    Important Note: If bench testing the analog output
    outside of a vehicle, a multimeter's positive lead may be
    connected to the WHITE wire however the BROWN wire
    must be connected to BOTH the multimeter's negative
    lead AND power ground going to the X-Series UEGO
    device. This connection is usually made by the circuitry
    inside an ECU or data logger.
    Also, can't the -0334 use either 11-bit or 29-bit (AEMnet)? The manual says it's configurable. The stock firmware on the -0300 is locked into 29-bit AEMnet only.

  10. #550
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blindsquirrel View Post
    Also, can't the -0334 use either 11-bit or 29-bit (AEMnet)? The manual says it's configurable. The stock firmware on the -0300 is locked into 29-bit AEMnet only.
    Good find. Not sure about the 0334 being configurable, that would be good, but then I wouldn't be able to use it with HPT. I guess I could put it back, or better yet get HPTuners to read AEM-Net. I'm currently trying to get the MS3 to accept the OBD code, which it should do, possibly. The 0300 has the beta software that essentially makes it a 0334.

    The descriptions for the 0334 says only OBDII: https://www.aemelectronics.com/produ...and-uego-obdii
    The address and PID is configurable, but I don't see anything about changing AEM-NET vs. OBDII., since those are different gauge part numbers, though, uses the same hardware.
    Manual: https://www.aemelectronics.com/files...ller-Gauge.pdf

    I started measuring the AEM analog while connected, so if the Ground thing was true, it would have been working that way. I cut the wires to confirm it still wasn't outputting voltage.

    In the house on the bench, while connected to a new unused sensor, not grounding the sensor ground resulted in analog readings every startup, no problems. If I connect the sensor negative to the power ground, I suspect it will still work. The in car setup analog negative is connected to the MS3 sensor ground, like the TPS, IAT, CLT, etc. Those all work fine.
    Last edited by 10_SS; 03-12-2021 at 02:22 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  11. #551
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    OK.

    I have not seen this behavior with the analog outputs. I will have to try some experiments. This happens only with the 30-0334 firmware loaded ?
    Is it possible that there is intermittent contact on the ANALOG- wire, in the harness ? A floating ANALOG- line causes all kinda of mischief on the analog outputs. It needs a solid ground reference.

    It is not possible to switch between OBDII (30-0334) and AEMNet ( 30-0300 ) CAN data protocols. This is because the firmware for both protocols does not fit in the CPU in the gauge. The 30-0334 can switch between 29-bit and 11-bit message ID addresses.

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.mike View Post
    OK.

    I have not seen this behavior with the analog outputs. I will have to try some experiments. This happens only with the 30-0334 firmware loaded ?
    Is it possible that there is intermittent contact on the ANALOG- wire, in the harness ? A floating ANALOG- line causes all kinda of mischief on the analog outputs. It needs a solid ground reference.

    It is not possible to switch between OBDII (30-0334) and AEMNet ( 30-0300 ) CAN data protocols. This is because the firmware for both protocols does not fit in the CPU in the gauge. The 30-0334 can switch between 29-bit and 11-bit message ID addresses.
    It happens with both 0300 and 0334, I just confirmed. But, only in the car. Also wiring is fine. Data is extremely accurate when the analogs finally start up. I used to think it was the Megasquirt analog inputs not responding since that made more sense, but no. Also No glitches ever, something maybe you would see when hitting bumps, whatnot.

    Another strange thing, with both gauges (0300 and 0334), when connected in the car to the original WB Sensor, I cant access the menu! The buttons are dead no matter what I do. When I disconnect the sensor only, then I can access the menu like normal. When I take them and put it on the bench with an unused sensor, I can access the menu on both no problem with sensor connected. So now with the buttons not responding, and the analog outputs not starting up consistently, I know something is up.

    Also, so far, on the bench, I don't have Analog Output startup problems at all with either 0300 or 0334 gauge.

    So really, seems like the in car sensor is causing all these problems. CAN output and Heating seems fast, and work normally on both. That's the strange part. Data is extremely consistent and believable, with no noise at all. Never a glitch or "out of bounds" on either CAN or analog outputs in the 2+yrs I've been running it. Just this delayed analog startup, and the buttons not working in car (sensor?).

    Thanks for looking into this!! It's very strange. I remember asking you about something like this a year or two ago, but since I wasn't using the analog outputs, I didn't really affect much. To access menu, I would simply disconnect sensor, since the gauge is in my arm rest storage. But now I am and noticing these bigger problems.

    My next step is to swap the sensors, that would really prove this out.

    One disadvantage with the 0334 is it doesn't display the real PID or ECU address when you access those menus. Example: ECU address 7e7 on 0300, and only "7" on 0334. PID, is "24" for 0300, and "1" on 0334, even though 1 stands for 24, apparently. It creates more work and confusion with the 0334, is all.
    Last edited by 10_SS; 03-13-2021 at 08:35 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  13. #553
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    Could be a wiring issue.

  14. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.mike View Post
    Could be a wiring issue.

    how? Only thing remotely possible would be AEM ground, no?

    AEM 12v+ goes to the main 12v+ feeding everything else, including Megasquirt.
    AEM 12v- (gnd) goes to the main ground feeding everything else, including Megasquirt.

    AEM Analog+ goes to Megasquirt Ego input (0-5v)
    AEM Analog- goes to Megasquirt Signal ground, which goes to the Clt, IAT, sensor grounds, back into the Megasquirt. That ground goes back to the Megasquirt power ground bus plane inside the Megasquirt, having the "signal ground" ran separately from the MS power ground removes any load on that wire, making very clean data signals, which is the case in both HPTuners OEM ECU and the Megasquirt for all sensors. The AEM is the only thing acting funny.

    On the bench, I ran them two ways using my fancy 2 channel DC power supply, with separated isolated grounds for each side:
    1) Megasquirt powered and grounded on ch1
    2) AEM power + and - on ch2, independent 12v and grounds. AEM signal + to Megasquirt EGO input and - only to the ch2 ground: Result: no problems.
    3) same as above, but grounding the AEM signal ground to Megasquirt ground: Result: no problems

    Car is setup like #3, grounding the AEM signal ground to the Megasquirt power ground, just on it's own ground wire going back to the Megasquirt. So, Car is setup like #3 above.

    You made me think of one scenario... low voltage. I wonder if low voltage could cause this problem, seems unlikely as the main functions of the gauge work fine (heating, calcs, and CAN)..... ..... 5mins later: Well, just tested that. It wont boot below 10v (says Batt), once you get it to boot above 10v, you can pull down to at least 9.0v and it keeps heating... although while pulling 1.3amps! But still, at 9.0v I can still access menus.
    Last edited by 10_SS; 03-13-2021 at 09:15 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  15. #555
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    Not sure. I am just looking at the process of elimination.

    If it works on the bench. But not in the car. The only differences are:

    1. The sensor
    2. The wiring harness.
    3. The 12v power
    4. Whatever is connected to the various harness wires.


    The sensor, itself, SEEMS like a long-shot ?

  16. #556
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr.mike View Post
    Not sure. I am just looking at the process of elimination.

    If it works on the bench. But not in the car. The only differences are:

    1. The sensor
    2. The wiring harness.
    3. The 12v power
    4. Whatever is connected to the various harness wires.


    The sensor, itself, SEEMS like a long-shot ?
    sensor itself does seem like a long shot, that's why I was asking the Dr.! Who knows, maybe there's something in the code. Not sure why it would work on cold start every single day, but then restarts when warm (5-10mins after shutting off engine), restarts always take few minutes for analogs to start working. Like clockwork. This has been happening for years. Also I've never had a CAN delay, or heating delay or any sensor error, so that is strange also. I forget what problem I had with this car sensor before when I first received the 0334, something was strange about it, I posted it here 1-2yrs ago, but I dont remember what. Maybe it was the lack of Menu access.

    As far as wiring, nothing changes from first start to restarting when warm. The Menu buttons on the other hand, never work in the car from what I remember. I thought that's just the way it was as some safety protocol (locked out unless sensor wire removed). Keep in mind, when the sensor is unplugged, I can access the menus. And works fine on the bench, the bench also consists of the same oem ECU as the car does. Just doesnt have all of the other can modules attached.

    I just realized I can easily plug in the new sensor to the gauge, while sitting in the car... report back soon on that one..
    Last edited by 10_SS; 03-13-2021 at 09:23 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  17. #557
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    That's affirmative.. new unused sensor, plugged into car (not mounted on exhaust pipe), menu's work with both gauges! So strange.

    Only thing unchecked now would be the sensor body ground itself, and that patch harness between sensor and gauge. Is the sensor somehow grounded internally to the housing, therefore exhaust pipe (engine ground)?

    For now I will assume the analog delay is tied into the no-menu problem. Probably safe to assume?

    Any ideas with that? Aside from this one strange problem, these AEM gauges are awesome. I've had all of the "good" competitors gauges, including the NGK EGO, that thing was accurate, but SLOW. So slow it constantly caused offsets in my VE table corrections by a few hundred RPM.. so only slow, long WOT runs would be somewhat accurate. This AEM X-series, all that instantly disappeared. It's so fast I can tune in 1st gear, WOT! lol
    Last edited by 10_SS; 03-13-2021 at 09:58 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  18. #558
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    So, something internal to the sensor must be shorted, in some strange way. This is, probably, all related.

    The odd part is that the same data is used for the Analog, CAN and serial data outputs. And, the Analog output gets 1st crack at it.

    If there is some odd intermittent in the sensor that keeps resetting some timer, or something, that could explain the menu issue. I wonder what the serial data looks like, at the same time. The Analog data is forced to 0v, or 5.0v under error conditions. IIRC 0.0v means that the sensor is not ready ( at proper operating temperature).

    As far as response time; yeah. The only thing that ever came close to to the AEM X-series controllers was the old Innovate LC-1 ( NOT the LC-2 ). And, even then, it took a LOT of work to set them up, properly,to get good data.

    The VE table offsets come from what I call "cell velocity" i.e. the VE cells ( MAP and RPM ) change faster than the response time of most widebands. Especially NTK/NGK sensor based units. So, they are only, really, good for steady state measurements. Which is the opposite of a dyno pull or a run at the track.

    I have used the AEM widebands to tune power-shifts and DFCO recovery. Which is impossible, without 10ms or better response time.

  19. #559
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Good news! I swapped sensors, and now my buttons in car work! Also, so far with hot restarts, analogs start working right away!

    The old sensor, on the bench, acts the same way as it did in car, Menu buttons not responding when the sensor is connected.

    Strange! CAN and display output still work like normal though.

    Yes, the response is insane fast. I think I can see individual cylinder pulses, of one bank on a v8. I plan to use the realtime tuning adjustments on the MS3 and increase fuel on one cylinder to see if I get a single bump in one of those AFR pulses. I would actually like to slow down/smooth it just a bit, if this is the case.

    Thanks for all the help you have been, this is the best Wideband money can buy, I feel. And your OBD contributions are awesome.

    Do you think there's any way to include two CAN communications, AEM-Net and OBD? Or a mode to select either, or? Kinda like add a CAN mode.. AEM or OBD?

    Or, is there a way to force this AEM to broadcast it's data rather than require a request? I happen to have a stand alone dash display that shows engine data and AEM WB data, which requests the PIDs, so I then can use the MEGASQUIRT CAN to also receive the AEM data, MEGASQUIRT cant request data like OBD does. If I could get the AEM to broadcast the data, then I could still use the Megasquirt to receive the CAN data without my dash display connected. I'm using the Megasquirt to receive other CAN broadcast data, like IAT, MPH, etc. Works GREAT!
    Last edited by 10_SS; 03-14-2021 at 06:18 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  20. #560
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    That is a bizarre sensor failure. It must be causing some kind if timing error. Probably some intermittent contactm doing something like a spark-gap, or something.


    Individual cylinder pulses can really be seen on the Analog output line. The update rate for the analog data is 2ms, vs. 10ms for CAN data. I have used this to tune Weber carbs ( individual throttle-per-cylinder ), using an oscilloscope, triggered on the #1 spark. IIRC, I was able to pick out cylinder variations up to about 2700RPM, in what was, effectively, a straight six. Or, more correctly, 2 of them MOre than good enough to tune idle and transition to the main jets



    There is a way to get the WB to broadcast OBDII data, using the DPID interface. But, it requires sending a keep-alive message, every 2 seconds; and, a few initial setup calls. This is part of the whole MODE 0x2c thing.


    As far as having multiple protocols, in the gauge, probably not.

    The following is the result of the build for the 30-0334 code. This is on a 16K ( 16,384 byte ) CPU.
    There are 152 TOTAL bytes of code-space left. And, they are not contiguous. Not a lot is going to be added to the 30-0334 functionality, without going to a 32K CPU

    ****************************************
    * *
    * CHECKSUMS *
    * *
    ****************************************

    Symbol Checksum Memory Start End Initial #Initial
    ------ -------- ------ ----- --- ------- --------
    __checksum 0xb89d CODE 00000000 - 000037FD 0x0000 #0x0000

    ****************************************
    * *
    * END OF CROSS REFERENCE *
    * *
    ****************************************

    16 230 bytes of CODE memory (+ 2 absolute, 152 range fill )
    781 bytes of DATA memory (+ 90 absolute )
    64 bytes of XDATA memory

    Errors: none
    Warnings: none