I email Ford and finally got a reply. Interesting that the numbers in the ecu are contradictory to what they say.Screenshot_2016-02-02-11-03-04.png
I email Ford and finally got a reply. Interesting that the numbers in the ecu are contradictory to what they say.Screenshot_2016-02-02-11-03-04.png
i wish they would have been a bit more descriptive
Good. Which means we are wrong about the cam events and the base value.
Welp, back to the drawring board..... This was my initial thought was that it was not but the numbers didn't make sense any other way.
I think it's more fun trying to figure it out anyways.
Even more now we need the cams degreed physically.
Last edited by Higgs Boson; 02-02-2016 at 03:48 PM.
I wonder if I reply asking for that info if they would give it to me?
Worst he could say is no. Or maybe they are just telling us that its not, it's a conspiracy.Originally Posted by murfie
What else could the valve events mean...?
I am looking at them again, the description calls the base numbers "from TDC" which might mean from 720 or 180 or 540 or 360.
It might not just be 360 - base + modifier.
The 11-14 is 0 for TDC, right?
One way or another tdc being 0 or 360, ivo and evc will happen around TDC. My new cable well be here next week the 9th and I'll be able to get a lot more hands on with the scanner and get much better info about what exactly is going on.
Last edited by murfie; 02-02-2016 at 06:28 PM.
I get enough crazy conspiracy theory pushed at me from YouTube recommended videos. Entertaining for sure.
How about this:
Values are at .050
IVO @ .050 is ATDC (- is BTDC)
EVC @ .050 is BTDC (- is ATDC)
IVO is (360 - base value) + modifier
EVC is (base value - 360) - modifier
MP1 would be:
IVO: (360 - 340) + 20 = 40 ATDC @ .050
EVC: (369 - 360) - 0 = 9 BTDC @ .050
49 degrees of underlap at Idle @ .050
0 degrees of overlap at Idle @ .006
OP @ 3500 RPM:
IVO: 20 - 10 = 10 ATDC @ .050
EVC: 9 - 21 = 12 ATDC @ .050
2 degrees of underlap at 3500 OP @ .050
47 degrees of overlap at 3500 OP @ .006
So you are subtracting the positive numbers of the exhaust side. Then on the intake side the value is just added to the base value from 360. I thought that before but didn't like the ecu moving the exhaust and intake in different directions with the same value. It is entirely possible. The 11-14 didn't work this way. They had one side positive one side negative. With the intake phaser moving in two directions and the exhaust only one they could be totally different phasers and that would explain why the same value would move them in opposite directions. I like it but +30 or +40 ivo at cruise would be 50*-60* atdc. Sounds like atkinson timing to me.
How these numbers work with out being atkinson timing I don't know. Why would Ford start using a mid lock phaser? I'm sure is more costly than the regular phasers. with out changing valve timing to benefit either emissions, power or fuel economy or all three I don't get it. I'm sticking by the statements you get from Ford are not always truthful and some time entirely made up by people who don't know what they talking about. Just like why IMRC improves low end torque.
Last edited by murfie; 02-02-2016 at 07:46 PM.
We know the intake moves both directions on the 2015+.
My numbers could be wrong, probably they are, but it was my first inclination. I plan to keep playing with it.
Ford Racing might be able to help you guys with some info, worth a shot I guess. All this stuff is flying right over my head lol.
Maybe the engine isn't atkinson, but that doesn't mean the VCT predictions we have are wrong. We have to remember the 11-14 engine is still the same mod motor with some minor tweaks. The operation of the engine can't be that far off from the 11-14 or from what we have previously learned. I'm working on doing my VCT with my long tubes installed. That will tell the tale of what the engine likes and then we can compare.
Kris
the numbers I am using are what get's it close to the old numbers based on their valve events at park and max.
If the 14 was IVO 33.5 ATDC @.050 at park, and we assume 0 is park, then it idles at 33.5 ATDC and the 15 idles at 40 ATDC.
and so on.... again, "or maybe not...."
Well you have four options as I see it. Lots of atkinson, a little atkinson, a little against physics, a lot against physics. 340 is either 20* after or before to dead center. And the +40 is either added or subtracted from that starting position. So 300* or 380* during cruising. They could either be before or after.
Im picking 380* and that's after tdc. So 20* after is the farthest it goes and 40* before. What the actual cam position values are I'm not sure. Cruising at 20* atdc is atkinson to me with how large the durations are in the stock cams.
Last edited by murfie; 02-02-2016 at 09:44 PM.
We aren't accounting for the cam grind, which I did now and it matched 11-14. My previous post is indeed wrong.
IVC:
33.5 ATDC + base + modifier
EVC:
base - 17.5 BTDC + modifier
33.5 IVC and 17.5 EVO are based on .050 11-14 cam specs, which may have changed for 2015/2016, I know the cams changed a bit, but I haven't seen the new numbers.
Comp cams just released new cams for the 15+. I haven't looked at the spec cards yet. I know the 11-14 stage 1 was really close to 15+ base values. I've heard they don't need phaser limiters which leads me more to atkinson timing at least a little bit.
If you look at the picture, there is plenty of action IVO ATDC......at .050.
If you move to .006, take 260 - 211 = 49 / 2 = 24.5 and you can advance the IVO 24.5 so at MP5 cruise you go from 413.5 @ .050 to 389 @.006 which is still IVO ATDC but Ford does not consider that Atkinson Cycle cam timing......
How far ATDC does the intake have to open to be considered Atkinson?
Take a normal LSx stock cam, let's say 200/207 @ 118 LSA with a 111 ICL..... IVO @ .050 is 11 ATDC, subtract 20 for .006 and you get 9 BTDC....
An aftermarket LSx cam, let's say 230 / 240 @ 112 with a 110 ICL.....IVO @ .050 is 5 BTDC, subtract 20 for .006 and you get 25 BTDC....
I think the stock cams are just conservative rather than Atkinson Cycle?
-20 modifier is IVO 353 @ .050 or 7 BTDC, which is like a medium sized LSx cam IVO event, but of course the valve still closes in 211 degrees rather than 230....
Last edited by Higgs Boson; 02-02-2016 at 10:14 PM.
They could have achieved this with the one way cam phasers. Instead they choose to spend the extra money on two way phasers for absolutely no reason but to make the car more expensive to produce and sell. It's a good thing they sold as well as they did.
At .050 the after market 11-14 are up to 7* smaller than the 15+. The stage 1 has starting positions very similar to the base values in the 2015. They require 20* phaser limiters. Every where I read the 2015 cams got more lift and more Duration. Bigger valves as well. So unless Ford has that totally mixed up as well. I still think the -20 is just like a phaser limiter the 11-14 cars needed with bigger cams and the 40* is just for holding the intake valve open longer past bottom dead center.That's the true definition of atkinson timing. Not how far it opens ATDC but when it closes ABDC.
Last edited by murfie; 02-02-2016 at 11:04 PM.
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