which table to change for for power

[stick8555]

so to i move the pilot tale base or injector timing base for more power?? totally new to diesel tuning

[2007 5.9]

Power is a combination of added fuel (duration) and injector timing (main base timing).

Start by cleaning up the main timing tables, then go to the lower right corner of the pulse table and add 20% and go from there.

[energetic motorsports]

Make small changes and try and watch data. really first thing you should do is study the tables and study axis's and how tables effect each other. Understanding the ecm table structure is only the beginning of tuning. Also you need to know what your cummins likes, what size turbo what size injectors. stock injectors are easy to tune for. also study limit tables that will cap off some normal calibrations.

5.9L ecm structure

pedal map
-this basically builds a fuel quanity requested based on tps position vs rpm.
-this results in a mm3 valve which is used to control rail pressure, timing and pulse tables.

-injector pw (pulse table)
-This is based on rail pressure vs mm3 which is requested valve from the petal map
- pulse table is where the magic happens small changes here are advised this table will need to be adjusted based on injector size.
- like said above turning up 20% will make a decent increase. The cummins like pulse and timing. Becareful at some point high pulse will build too much cylinder pressure . I try to keep under 2500 pulse on larger injectors. i dont like to ever go over 3200 pulse. Which really is too much if you go that high i highly recommend getting larger injectors so the duration of spray is much less. I could go on for days on this topic.
base timing table
- this is mm3 and rpm.
- Cummins 5.9L like timing make small changes until you have what you are looking for. 28 degrees is about as much as i run on stock trucks. really depends on fueling and how the motor feels. too much timing down load in rpm can cause injector rattle sound.
Base fuel (rail pressure desired table)
- This is based on mm3 vs rpm
- Rail pressure is a good thing . too much will cause huge problems.
- you are limited to scale of your factory rail sensor. 180mpa. lml sensors can be scaled in and used for higher pressure control.
- too much rail down low rpm or load will cause rattle.
- smooth rail tables are a good thing.
- dont drop rail to low at idle it will run rough. to high and it will rattle.
- to much desired the factory fuel will not be able to keep up.
- you are also limited to 160mpa rail pressure with stock relief valve. rail block off are avaible to help with this.
Tuning is best learned by digging in and studying tables and making small changes. also getting to know your motors machanical limitation and what is safe.
happy tuning.

[energetic motorsports]

Pilot tables are good for turbo spool up and quality of burn. Also they can help with engine noise. much quiter and smoother. Not really a table that needs to be tuned in very much. Focus on the main pw, rail pressure, petal, and timing maps.

Post tables can be used to help with emissions and turbo spool if changed to help burn fuel in the exhaust. Most tuner turn off the post injection to help with mpg. it help lower the nox in the exhaust by adding carbon to the exhaust that limits how much nitrogen bonds with oxygen, by using carbon from diesel to suck up the exsess oxygen.

[sdimezq8]

2007 5.9 - Les

Can you please help me understand what you mean by "Start by cleaning up the main timing tables"

I like the OP am new to diesel tuning and have recently acquired a early 2004 (305/555) truck.

Your advice to add some PW did indeed make a noticeable difference. I've been logging and tweaking, but want to play it safe... especially with the timing.

Tomorrow I am going to adjust the boost with a 'boost elbow' to 30 psi (at 25 now with the additional PW) and would like to also add a small amount of timing.

All, in all.... I am tuning this truck to be fun, but also want it to be able to safely tow an 8k loaded enclosed trailer too.

Thanks!

[JohnnyK05]

The comment was meaning that you should spent some time smoothing out the map. When you look at the timing particularly it is quite jagged. Smooth out the high and low peaks. Adding timing is best done using a calculator to insure you don't go too far either way.

[sdimezq8]

JohnnyK05, Thanks.

That is actually what I have already done. I wasn't sure if there was more too it from an adder standpoint. When tuning GM/LS stuff I often zero some of the adder tables and move things into the base table.

So to start we can increase the lower right-hand section of the Injector PW table. The attached image is where I made changes (I also smoothed the whole table). This did make a noticeable difference in power output, and exhaust tone above 2000 rpm. (I've been logging rail pressure and PW and everything looks to be in check with the changes)

InjectorPW+20.PNG

Regarding the timing, I found this calculator http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...lculator/page2 but it looks like it is only for 04.5 trucks, mine is an early 04. Do we have a calculator for the 03 and early 04 trucks?

What do I log to see my changes, is it solely 'Main Inj Timing'?

Here is a point in time of what I am logging stock, with just a smoothed table.

StockSmoothedTimingLog.PNG

EDIT: The more I am reading over other posts, the more it seems this works no different than GM/LS stuff. I can either zero out the adder/coeff tables and put all my timing in my base tables OR work around/with all the adder/coeff tables.

Thanks in advance for the help and guidance!
-Mike

[B00STJUNKY]

JohnnyK05, Thanks.

That is actually what I have already done. I wasn't sure if there was more too it from an adder standpoint. When tuning GM/LS stuff I often zero some of the adder tables and move things into the base table.

So to start we can increase the lower right-hand section of the Injector PW table. The attached image is where I made changes (I also smoothed the whole table). This did make a noticeable difference in power output, and exhaust tone above 2000 rpm. (I've been logging rail pressure and PW and everything looks to be in check with the changes)

InjectorPW+20.PNG

Regarding the timing, I found this calculator http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...lculator/page2 but it looks like it is only for 04.5 trucks, mine is an early 04. Do we have a calculator for the 03 and early 04 trucks?

What do I log to see my changes, is it solely 'Main Inj Timing'?

Here is a point in time of what I am logging stock, with just a smoothed table.

StockSmoothedTimingLog.PNG

EDIT: The more I am reading over other posts, the more it seems this works no different than GM/LS stuff. I can either zero out the adder/coeff tables and put all my timing in my base tables OR work around/with all the adder/coeff tables.

Thanks in advance for the help and guidance!
-Mike

Just a heads up, your injection advance is pretty low in the screenshot you included. It's not dangerously low, IMO, but probably not optimal.

At 2947 RPM, and 2097 uSec of duration, the injection even lasts for a total of 37.1 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Your main timing is 11.3 degrees BTDC, so you are spraying fuel for 25.8 degrees ATDC.

[sdimezq8]

Thanks, BOOSTJUNKY

I really appreciate the input. So am I correct that I need to get a calculator and build my base table from that? What is the safest split for BTDC vs ATDC on the early common rails (305/555)? I am not looking to make max power, but I am looking to build a conservative tune and share my knowledge with others that are looking to do the same.

[B00STJUNKY]

Thanks, BOOSTJUNKY

I really appreciate the input. So am I correct that I need to get a calculator and build my base table from that? What is the safest split for BTDC vs ATDC on the early common rails (305/555)? I am not looking to make max power, but I am looking to build a conservative tune and share my knowledge with others that are looking to do the same.

Honestly, I don't know entirely what balance works best for power vs mileage vs EGT. I have some theories, but I don't have the time nor funds to dedicate to dyno time to find out if they hold any water.

But, for the time being, I've adopted a few thinking practices that I don't mind sharing. Anyone who feels confident in their diesel tuning expertise is welcome to chime in and correct any errant thinking that I may share, here.

1) I feel that injection events should never occur at anything sooner than 35* BTDC nor any later than 35* ATDC. Much past these values, and you start to run the risk of spraying outside of the combustion chamber bowl of the piston.

2) Peak Cylinder Pressures are generally considered optimal to occur at, or around, 15 to 20* ATDC. With that in mind, my thinking is that, if you have the ability within your window of spraying fuel (which will vary greatly depending upon RPM and Duration) and you are in a higher load range (Power Enrichment), you should set the injection timing such that you end the injection event around the 15 to 20* range. Obviously if you're using a LOT of duration at higher RPM, say 2900+ uSec at 3000+ RPM, you start to run out of injection window to get the full shot in before 20* ATDC. So, at that point, I start adjusting my injection timing so that the injection split between SOI and EOI stays within that 35* BTDC to 35* ATDC window. This is where much larger injectors can come in handy for big power setups, in that you can spray a much larger shot of fuel in a much shorter window, thus increasing the timing efficiency of the combustion event.

3) For lower load sections of the map and at lower RPM, I have a lot of timing values that start shortly after TDC, and still end at around 7* ATDC, or even less in some areas where duration is super short. That means you'll see some negative values in the main injection timing map at the top-left hand corner.

These are just a few general rules of thumb that I tend to follow. They may or may not be optimal in all scenarios, but I feel they give at least a decent, safe foundation to start with.

[sdimezq8]

BOOSTJUNKY

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and theories. This is good stuff, it explains why you gave me a heads up on my timing and pw.

I believe the safety concerns here are (while I want to make power, safely doing so is my main goal)

1.) We do not want to spray outside of the bowl of the piston.
2.) SOI to early (BTDC) can build too much pressure/heat in the cylinders.
3.) EOI too late (ATDC) can build too much pressure/heat in the exhaust side of things.

I added 20% PW in the high load areas (as shown above). Simply adding PW extends the duration that fuel is injected, thus extending the EOI or adding to the degrees ATDC that fuel is injected. While doing this did increase power output, this change alone may not be optimal.

Here is what I am thinking. Adding timing can:

1.) Build more cylinder pressure, which could result in more power depending on when this event occurs
2.) Allow the additional fuel that I am now injecting, to be injected sooner, thus more efficiently using the fuel.

The question I am uncertain of is, what is a reasonable amount of timing to add? I am thinking that I want to increase the timing in the same high load/rpm areas that I increased the PW. If I were to increase the timing by 50% in these areas, my max timing under WOT would be ~20*

Any thoughts on performance and safety of doing so? Here are my tables for reference.

MainSOI+50.PNG

[poulioteri]

BOOSTJUNKY

I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and theories. This is good stuff, it explains why you gave me a heads up on my timing and pw.

I believe the safety concerns here are (while I want to make power, safely doing so is my main goal)

1.) We do not want to spray outside of the bowl of the piston.
2.) SOI to early (BTDC) can build too much pressure/heat in the cylinders.
3.) EOI too late (ATDC) can build too much pressure/heat in the exhaust side of things.

I added 20% PW in the high load areas (as shown above). Simply adding PW extends the duration that fuel is injected, thus extending the EOI or adding to the degrees ATDC that fuel is injected. While doing this did increase power output, this change alone may not be optimal.

Here is what I am thinking. Adding timing can:

1.) Build more cylinder pressure, which could result in more power depending on when this event occurs
2.) Allow the additional fuel that I am now injecting, to be injected sooner, thus more efficiently using the fuel.

The question I am uncertain of is, what is a reasonable amount of timing to add? I am thinking that I want to increase the timing in the same high load/rpm areas that I increased the PW. If I were to increase the timing by 50% in these areas, my max timing under WOT would be ~20*

Any thoughts on performance and safety of doing so? Here are my tables for reference.

MainSOI+50.PNG

Your best option is to use a timing calculator to avoid guessing and trial/error. The tables you posted CAN be easily input to a timing calculator spreadsheet depending on where the spreadsheet came from. Bamofo recently created a calc that works great for my 2005.5, but I am not sure how well it works for pre-2004.5 trucks... It is linked in the thread: Timing Calculator.

[sdimezq8]

poulioteri, Thanks. I agree with that.

My numbers are 1 - 2 degrees lower than the ones produced by the calculator you mentioned, with a 50/50 split. I am just not sure if it is good for the 2003/2004 trucks. I have that question posted in the other thread.

[muz79]

Me personally, I'd be happy with those numbers. You aren't making enormous hp. While I agree that a calc does do a good job, and is the best thing to use for fine tuning, if you added 50% timing to the areas where you've got more fuel going in, that'll be more than enough. I'm guessing you'll keep an eye on egt's, especially if you're still running the stock he341

[sdimezq8]

muz79

That is what I was thinking, but looking for verification.

The truck has a stock he341... only mods to the truck are intake and full exhaust... it has high mileage and has never had a tune/tuner on it before.

I just installed a boost regulator (stock boost levels for now) and I am waiting on my gauges to show up before pushing anything.

[sdimezq8]

Well, Guys... Here is a mild tune that I built and have been running in my truck. (Early 2004 - 305/555 - Intake and Full Exhaust)

Enhancements are only from about 2K - 3K RPM, where I felt my truck was lacking in performance.

I am sharing this in hopes of getting some feedback and also to help others get a jump start.

This is by no means targeted at the skilled tuners on this form. This is simply what I have learned over the past few weeks.

My2004StockTune+SmallChangesOver2kRPM.hpt MOD

My2004StockTune.hpt STOCK

Thanks!
-Mike

[sasdakota]

So I would like to start off asking what your motive was for adding all that pulse in at the lower mm3 section but not utilizing "full fuel" command on your throttle map? It taps out at 120mm3 but pulse map shows 140mm3 last column, so you are not making use of the pulse map resolution.

If you intend to run 140mm3, youll need to look up the baro tables, boost limit, etc for fuel qty and set them 141-150mm3 to be out above the 140mm3 comanded by throttle. I recommend to start there opening up the existing calibration then start to shape your maps(tables) after that.

[muz79]

^^ x2

[sdimezq8]

sasdakota

I saw that I was able to get the full 120 without hitting any limiters, and I was getting the expected results so I just worked with the 120mm3. If it is advisable to only add more pulse in the most lower/right mm3 regions and move my pedal map to 140mm3 after adjusting my limiters, that is something I want to try.

Thanks!

[Cumminsmaynee]

How come my factory 03 cummins has over 7000us at the top right of injector pw table? i am brand new to the tuning world, so bare with me. lol i need some major guidance But thanks for this reply! it helped alot. So do i need to add .20 or 20 percent to each box in pw table? Thanks!