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Thread: Ngk Afx wideband?

  1. #1
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    Ngk Afx wideband?

    I have a Ngk Afx wideband that the connector melt and since its kinda old I was just going to buy another one.
    I look it up at ballenger where I first bought mine but they don't sell it no more, I search and found it here
    http://www.lethalperformance.com/ngk...d1UaAhMY8P8HAQ

    Just wondering if its the same wideband...

  2. #2
    not the same, but they still sell parts and their own labeled version.

    http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337

  3. #3
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    So there's no more NGK AFX wideband?

    What is a good wideband as the NGK AFX?

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    The ballenger afr500 as mentioned above. Basically an ngk afx but now renamed under a new company.

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    What parts do you need?

    You can still buy the harness from all kinds of places.

    Its around 70-80$

    This is why i have 5 AFX control boxes lol.
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  6. #6
    The Ballenger is not "basically the same" other than it's look. It is not a lab grade wideband like the NGK was. The NGK was as good as any wideband 5x it's price. You just can't find that quality now for that price. Most widebands will do the job though, as long as you calibrate them properly, but I will keep my NGK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpturbo View Post
    The Ballenger is not "basically the same" other than it's look. It is not a lab grade wideband like the NGK was. The NGK was as good as any wideband 5x it's price. You just can't find that quality now for that price. Most widebands will do the job though, as long as you calibrate them properly, but I will keep my NGK.
    Interesting..... The AFR500 uses the same harness and wideband sensor as the AFX powerdex. I was told that the AFX powerdex and AFR500 are the same units just rebranded for copyright reasons(its done all the time in the electronics market). I just reordered a new harness and connectors as I have a few extra units that needed repair. I can vouch that all of the wiring and pieces are identical as for function.

    I can use my same harness and wideband sensor that I have for the AFX unit with the AFR500 unit.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rpturbo View Post
    The Ballenger is not "basically the same" other than it's look. It is not a lab grade wideband like the NGK was. The NGK was as good as any wideband 5x it's price. You just can't find that quality now for that price. Most widebands will do the job though, as long as you calibrate them properly, but I will keep my NGK.

    Designed by the same group as the Powerdex AFX, the AFR500 has identical dimensions, specifications, features, & function.

    http://news.bmotorsports.com/balleng...oduct-release/

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner LSxpwrdZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpturbo View Post
    The Ballenger is not "basically the same" other than it's look. It is not a lab grade wideband like the NGK was. The NGK was as good as any wideband 5x it's price. You just can't find that quality now for that price. Most widebands will do the job though, as long as you calibrate them properly, but I will keep my NGK.
    You are incorrect. It is identical other than the AFR500 sticker on top of the unit. ECM still manufactures the wideband. You can still send the AFR500 back to ECM to convert it to their more accurate AFM1600L unit which changes the display into lambda as units and increases the reading range to 0.60-1.30 lambda.

    OP if you simply need parts for your existing AFX, Ballenger carries all the connectors, pins or full harness to repair or replace. They also carry multiple options for sensor for the AFX/AFR500.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rpturbo View Post
    The Ballenger is not "basically the same" other than it's look. It is not a lab grade wideband like the NGK was. The NGK was as good as any wideband 5x it's price. You just can't find that quality now for that price. Most widebands will do the job though, as long as you calibrate them properly, but I will keep my NGK.
    Where do you see that it is not the same?

    http://news.bmotorsports.com/balleng...oduct-release/

    If it is not the same, then I will stop recommending it, but other than the default sensor is a bosch it appears to be marketed the same as the AFX was.

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner LSxpwrdZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1998Ws6 View Post
    Where do you see that it is not the same?

    http://news.bmotorsports.com/balleng...oduct-release/

    If it is not the same, then I will stop recommending it, but other than the default sensor is a bosch it appears to be marketed the same as the AFX was.
    The AFX originally came with a Bosch sensor as well. It was available as an option with the NTK sensor for an upcharge.
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  12. #12
    Tuner in Training bmotorsports's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02Ls1 View Post
    I have a Ngk Afx wideband that the connector melt and since its kinda old I was just going to buy another one.
    I look it up at ballenger where I first bought mine but they don't sell it no more, I search and found it here
    http://www.lethalperformance.com/ngk...d1UaAhMY8P8HAQ

    Just wondering if its the same wideband...
    We do still sell it! You just have to read a little further on the NGK AFX page where we explain that we currently sell the AFR500 which is identical to the AFX in every way except the label. From the same manufacturer. It is the ECM box everyone loves. We sell ALL the replacement items including the connectors, harness, sensors, bungs, etc for the AFR500/AFX. We manufacture the harnesses and made several upgrades like heavier wire, smaller & higher temp sleeving, an inline fuse, etc.

    There is a complete breakdown of all the parts on the product page for the AFR500 on our website. SNSR-00990 -> http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337 .

    Since you only melted the connector, you can just replace that part or you can choose to replace the whole harness but you probably have years of good life left on your NGK AFX.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpturbo View Post
    The Ballenger is not "basically the same" other than it's look. It is not a lab grade wideband like the NGK was. The NGK was as good as any wideband 5x it's price. You just can't find that quality now for that price. Most widebands will do the job though, as long as you calibrate them properly, but I will keep my NGK.
    Let's nip this rumor in the bud right here and now. It is EXACTLY THE SAME, save the sticker we print for the front and back. It is the ECM box and it is still awesome. This is exactly why we kept this product alive directly from ECM because it really is as good as any wideband 5x its price. So except for the misinformed part of this comment, we'll just take it as a compliment .

    On to other news, we are releasing the AFR500v2! We listened to our customer requests and provided just the additional features customers asked for.

    Summary of Changes for the v2:
    Lambda Display Option
    Wide Range Option
    (0.41-1.37 Lambda)
    (6-20 Gas AFR)
    (2.66-8.88 Methanol AFR)
    Increased display speed
    Bosch LSU 4.9 Option
    Methanol Display Option
    Faster analog output
    All harnesses, control units, accessories, etc (except the LSU 4.9) are backwards and forwards compatible
    Options are selectable at any time via internal jumpers
    NTK Calibration grade sensor highly recommended for low AFR methanol applications

    SNSR-00990 -> http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337

    To the content of this thread, yes this box does now have some changes because you wanted them! It is still the highly regarded ECM "lab grade" box.
    Last edited by bmotorsports; 03-03-2016 at 11:30 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmotorsports View Post
    We do still sell it! You just have to read a little further on the NGK AFX page where we explain that we currently sell the AFR500 which is identical to the AFX in every way except the label. From the same manufacturer. It is the ECM box everyone loves. We sell ALL the replacement items including the connectors, harness, sensors, bungs, etc for the AFR500/AFX. We manufacture the harnesses and made several upgrades like heavier wire, smaller & higher temp sleeving, an inline fuse, etc.

    There is a complete breakdown of all the parts on the product page for the AFR500 on our website. SNSR-00990 -> http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337 .

    Since you only melted the connector, you can just replace that part or you can choose to replace the whole harness but you probably have years of good life left on your NGK AFX.



    Let's nip this rumor in the bud right here and now. It is EXACTLY THE SAME, save the sticker we print for the front and back. It is the ECM box and it is still awesome. This is exactly why we kept this product alive directly from ECM because it really is as good as any wideband 5x its price. So except for the misinformed part of this comment, we'll just take it as a compliment .

    On to other news, we are releasing the AFR500v2! We listened to our customer requests and provided just the additional features customers asked for.

    Summary of Changes for the v2:
    Lambda Display Option
    Wide Range Option
    (0.41-1.37 Lambda)
    (6-20 Gas AFR)
    (2.66-8.88 Methanol AFR)
    Increased display speed
    Bosch LSU 4.9 Option
    Methanol Display Option
    Faster analog output
    All harnesses, control units, accessories, etc (except the LSU 4.9) are backwards and forwards compatible
    Options are selectable at any time via internal jumpers
    NTK Calibration grade sensor highly recommended for low AFR methanol applications

    SNSR-00990 -> http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337

    To the content of this thread, yes this box does now have some changes because you wanted them! It is still the highly regarded ECM "lab grade" box.
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  14. #14
    Good news and nice improvements. I have both the original AFX and AFR500 and will probably end up with a v2 at some point. One question regarding the NTK sensor (which I use) versus the Bosch 4.9 - I read a claim recently that the 4.9 is more accurate in real world conditions due to the comparatively low tolerances on the NTK sensor in terms of temperature and pressure. Any truth or comment on that? Keep up the good work.

  15. #15
    Tuner in Training bmotorsports's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSUte01 View Post
    Good news and nice improvements. I have both the original AFX and AFR500 and will probably end up with a v2 at some point. One question regarding the NTK sensor (which I use) versus the Bosch 4.9 - I read a claim recently that the 4.9 is more accurate in real world conditions due to the comparatively low tolerances on the NTK sensor in terms of temperature and pressure. Any truth or comment on that? Keep up the good work.
    Thanks, glad to hear you like the improvements!

    In truth the 4.2 & 4.9 don't vary much for a performance gas application. The 4.9 has a better theoretical longevity because of the closed reference cell due to carbon fouling / a dirty environment. What has really changed is the state of controller design. The aftermarket companies were quite poor at reverse engineering a good wideband controller and have gradually improved over the years. Since most companies going to the 4.9 are applying their latest and greatest technologies with years of experience, it gives the market the appearance that the 4.9 is a superior sensor because it is performing better in the field. Really, we are just seeing improved controller designs with some minor sensor improvements. This is one reason the AFX / AFR500 has stood well apart from the other aftermarket products, because of ECM's role at the calibration & OEM level instead of reverse engineering.

    The big difference from our perspective is that the 4.2 has been rising in cost as its production numbers dwindle and there is a stronger positive customer perception for the 4.9 sensor's quality.

    At this point there are a few different NTK sensors. As far as the traditional Calibration Grade NTK Sensor (not the newer ZFAS-U2), it was designed for an entirely different use case. It was made originally for higher accuracy, precision measurement from the get-go where the Bosch sensor was made for mass production use and low cost. The calibration grade sensor is why "the" NTK sensor developed its stellar reputation. NTK worked to reduce costs from their calibration sensors which is where you get the NTK production grade sensor (still excellent), and later the new low cost ZFAS-U2 (more like the Bosch sensors) design. The NTK AFRM uses the new ZFAS-U2 and lower cost hardware to improve margins that product. While that puts the NTK AFRM in a different bracket than the AFR500, I would still recommend it at its price point against equivalent hardware from Innovate, PLX, etc.

    In leaded or exotic fuels & high temperature environments, always go with the NTK sensor. If you want calibration quality, go with the calibration quality NTK sensor that is derived from the lab grade & f1 grade hardware. If you want a lower cost to compete with the rest of the market, the LSU 4.9 / 4.2 is still an excellent, accurate choice that will last for years with a properly tuned engine and an AFR500v2 controlling it. Only the AFR500v2 gives you the flexibility to choose from among these sensors and work well with all of them.
    Last edited by bmotorsports; 03-07-2016 at 04:25 PM.

  16. #16
    Thanks for the comprehensive reply!

  17. #17
    SeƱor Tuner MeentSS02's Avatar
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    And another thanks from me for the comprehensive reply. Placing my order for the AFR500v2 + NTK production grade sensor now...hopefully I can find something to keep me occupied until it is ready to ship.
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    BMotorsports, thank you for the information. I have used the AFX, no complaints in performance. I recently did some research and picked up a AEM 30-0300. While I respect having a accurate meter, I also respect a fast response and understand there may be trade-off. I pasted a chart below reporting response times. I fully understand it's advertising, yet we seldom get comparison data between products. Do you see the same response times with your experience on the NGK AFX? Will the V2 have faster response? Thank you in advance.



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    They should have noted that those response times include the time for the solenoid opening and gas transport. Which should be right around 10ms. So, you can subtract 10ms from each reading to get the actual response times of just the actual system, itself. That would match my testing. Except for the PLX which was so noisy that it needed filtering way beyond 37ms. And, the LC-1 which I got slightly faster numbers on; but, also had some noise issues.

    For the Powerdex, it probably would have been faster with a Bosch sensor. The NTK sensors are VERY slow.
    Last edited by dr.mike; 03-07-2016 at 08:57 PM.

  20. #20
    Tuner in Training bmotorsports's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcmg8 View Post
    BMotorsports, thank you for the information. I have used the AFX, no complaints in performance. I recently did some research and picked up a AEM 30-0300. While I respect having a accurate meter, I also respect a fast response and understand there may be trade-off. I pasted a chart below reporting response times. I fully understand it's advertising, yet we seldom get comparison data between products. Do you see the same response times with your experience on the NGK AFX? Will the V2 have faster response? Thank you in advance.
    We do so rarely get good information and I'm sure that chart will be referenced many times going forward. FWIW, we sell the AEM X-Series gauge & controller too (30-0300 & 30-0310). We also sell the NTK AFRM GEN2. If someone asked me which unit to get for immediate delivery because the AFR500v2 is shipping in April, I would recommend the NTK AFRM GEN2 or the new AEM X-Series.

    The AFX/AFR500 has a robust averaging & filtering routine that does not dump the immediate data garnered at that instant by design. The AFR500v2 has sped up this routine on the analog line and display compared to the v1 units.

    Speed does represent a design tradeoff. AEM has taken the approach of dumping instantaneous values to let the ECU/user perform the filtering, averaging, sanity checking. The AFR500 does this for the user, then presents the data. Both approaches have their merit.

    I spent a couple of hours today testing the AEM X-Series, AFR500v1, AFR500v2, AFRM GEN1, AFRM GEN2 just on sweep testing I will put this up in another post. The results are interesting.