Does HP Tuners Offer Access to These Engine Parameters???

[sssnake]

All I have been trying to manipulate the prediction coefficients so that I don't get the dreaded flat spot on the cyl air curve on tip in resulting in a lot of knock. I have done most everything I can think of and I am not able to eliminate the issue. In an attempt to determine what could possibly be causing the problem I loaded the brand X tuning software and found what appear to be values that are not available under HP Tuners. Rather than making a request to the team and later on finding out that the values are actually there but in some other menu that I didn't find I thought I would reach out to the community. Does anyone know if we can access the following parameters:

Estimated MAP Maximum
Estimated MAP Minimum
Intake Manifold Volume
MAP Estimated 1 Error
MAP Estimated 2 Error
Zone RPM Hysteresis
Zone RPM Hysteresis, AFM Mode
Steady State RPM Threshold
Steady State RPM Threshold, AFM Mode
Steady State MAP Threshold
Steady State MAP Threshold, AFM Mode

The main value I am interested in is the Estimated MAP Maximum however it seems that the intake Manifold Volume would be handy as well.

Just to try and eliminate any confusion these do not appear to be associated with engine diagnostics but rather the prediction algorithm/coefficients.

Also, I realize I can zero the prediction coefficients but when I do the MAF filtering goes to crap and the car seems much more erratic. However, anytime I use anything other than 0s in the prediction coefficients I get the cyl air/dynamic airflow hitting some unidentified maximum until I transition into high speed mode. I also realize I could lower the transition via the high RPM disable term but I would prefer not to have to resort to this work around either.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[sssnake]

Nearly 70 views with no comments... At this point I am guessing it is not available under HPT.

[GHuggins]

You can request manifold volume through support... The hysteresis one's may just be under a different name in HP. Both sct and efi call regular map settings by that name...

Sorry can't help more.

[cc-rider]

Manifold volume is part of the E38 when upgraded to the 2 bar OS. It's in the transients section.

[sssnake]

Thanks guys!

Have either of you played with other tuning software and if so do you know if changing the estimated MAP maximum will help with the error we see when using prediction coefficients on cars that have had SCs added?

I am still trying to find an answer for the prediction coefficients that doesn't include turning them off since it seems to effect the filtering of the MAF and MAP. The stock tune for my car has the Estimated MAP Maximum set to 105 KPA (where you would expect for an NA car). From the name and the location in the brand x software this parameter appears to be associated with prediction coefficients. As I am also able to get MAP readings to track with my 2.5 bar sensor I am assuming this Estimated MAP Maximum is used in the prediction algorithm. If this is the case it may explain the issues many have been seeing when the prediction coefficients are populated.

CC - I wish I had access to a custom OS. Unfortunately HPT doesn't offer one for my OS/car.

[GHuggins]

It was my thought or understanding that the max map was for the baro update limit all though some have stated it worked and some said it didn't? Can't confirm or deny this as I haven't used efi live to tune any gas motors... If it's not a limit for the baro, then I don't really know what it's for because I'm almost certain the transients and prediction coefficients are hard coded to rpm and not map points? Don't really know on that one...

The baro update will cause you the most problems if your boosted and at any altitude at all. That was one thing the os upgrades did - got rid of the update under wot transitions... This will wreak the most havoc on sd tunes - MAF filters out a lot of it and you only wind up with fueling being slightly thrown off.

I highly recommend killing the prediction coefficients or copying them out of a stock application very close to yours. There is no real way to tune them since we don't have access to all of the tables... Yes it screws with filtering for airmass calcs, but this is only temporarily or rather until the system has the ability to go through all of "it's" relearns = roughly 15mins...

[sssnake]

I obviously can't say conclusively whether the Estimated MAP Maximum is related to the baro update but:

Brand X help states - Estimated MAP Maximum: Maximum value the estimated MAP value is expected to reach.
If the value is above this threshold, this value will be substituted as the estimated MAP value.

That would lead me to believe the max MAP value is clipped to this limit during the prediction algorithm when in a transient condition (hard acceleration). This would lead to a clipped output from the dynamic airflow/cyl air calcs during transients as the model would shift to the VVE table/equation and use a greatly reduced MAP value in the lookup/calculation. This is what I see in my logs (when the dyn air/cyl air values flat line they are within 7% of the VVE calculated airflow for the RPM and a MAP value of 105KPA). To me this seems to be too large of a coincidence to ignore. Now I could be completely wrong and something else could be causing the problem but it is the only thing I can find and I have spent a LOT of time trying to chase this down.

"I'm almost certain the transients and prediction coefficients are hard coded to rpm and not map points? "

I believe they (prediction coefficients) match to the 30 (0-29) zones defined in the VVE equations/tables. Again I am not stating this as fact but it seems logical and also seems to be the conclusion others (Marcin- "redhardsupra", "Bluecat", "Griffinfcox", etc.) have drawn as well.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...n-Coefficients

[GHuggins]

I could definately see that... What happens if you change it with the other software? Do the prediction coefficient limits follow?

To my earlier statement - I was basing that off of recent research people have been doing where it was discovered that transients are completely out of the picture at the set (4000? rpm)... I'm sure they are map and maf devised, but I was referring to when they are allowed to work - if that makes sense?

[sssnake]

I could definately see that... What happens if you change it with the other software? Do the prediction coefficient limits follow?

If I had the other system I would already have tried it. I have downloaded the software but not purchased the system. As a hobbyist it is a little steep just to test my theory... I will say that I don't see people (other than folks I recognize from this forum) suggesting that the prediction coefficients should be zeroed. They also definitely suggest the Estimate MAP Maximum should be changed when adding a blower.

To my earlier statement - I was basing that off of recent research people have been doing where it was discovered that transients are completely out of the picture at the set (4000? rpm)... I'm sure they are map and maf devised, but I was referring to when they are allowed to work - if that makes sense?

I am following you now. I saw that thread as well. I am not sure how related the prediction coefficients are to the transient fueling. I do realize they both try to address transient load but I think they are separate methods (at least I haven't been able to tie the two together yet). I really haven't done much with the transient fueling because the prediction coefficients are such a large effect currently.

[cc-rider]

sssnake,
I am going to start playing with manifold volume in the transient tables and see what happens. I've got my prediction coefficients zeroed out. So maybe that will allow me to change the manifold volume and only have it affect the transients where I want it to. I'll report back.

[Bluecat]

Yep, I bet the Estimated MAP Maximum is the problem on boosted cars that were originally n/a and likely have it populated with 100kpa. Good job sssnake. I used to check out brand "E" every so often to see what they knew about that we didn't have. But its been years since I have have time to do stuff like that.

[sssnake]

I have a request in to support now. We'll see what they say.

[Michael_D]

Sometimes you have to email support and ask for the manifold volume table. They'll ask for your tune. They will add it, if it's available.

[sssnake]

It is "in the queue". With all of the recent changes to the SW I am sure there are a lot of things that are already in the queue in front of this.

I don't have a relationship with these folks (other than just another customer). If some of the more prominent members of the forum are interested in this and want to see it soon they may want to reach out to Bill and/or Chris and see if they can prioritize this somewhat (I'm not suggesting they are ignoring me but everyone is human). I really think this will help on the prediction coefficients and honestly I am really anxious to find out if I am right...

[sssnake]

Michael,

You are absolutely correct that was the first thing they asked for. They did offer to see if they could add manifold volume to the list of editable values for my tune and I would greatly appreciate it. However, the one I am most anxious about is the Estimated MAP Maximum as it has the most pronounced negative effect on m tune and many others. As it doesn't seem to be available in ANY of the HP Tuners tune files I suspect this one will be more involved.

Charles

[sssnake]

My tune now has access to Estimate MAP Maximum and Manifold Volume. I have adjusted both and will report back. Thanks Bill!

[pannetron]

Cool! Anxious to read about the results! What's the mechanism for making the additional parameters visible? A new editor version or a tweaked tune file?

[GHuggins]

Just wanted to check in and see if you found any benefits with the map maximum or not? Does the baro update above the max setting you put in durring full throttle boost - this is granted your not running an enhanced OS patch and your boosted...

[alexl226]

Yes. Very interested in an update!

[ElecTech]

Cool! Anxious to read about the results! What's the mechanism for making the additional parameters visible? A new editor version or a tweaked tune file?

An e-mail to support requesting whatever it is you think you are missing. When they map it out, it then becomes part of the next build requiring you to update your software.