Let's talk Neural Network.

[Mep_q8]

It seems to me there's a long debate regarding the Neural Network and whether or not disabling it or keeping it enabled is the right way to tune the fueling on the newer Mopars.

I for one love the challenge and disable the network every chance I get to (Not much point in disabling it on stock cars).

Researching into the Neural Network for more details, the conclusion I've come to is that this is a type of "Artificial Intelligence" so to say, that puts many factors (IAT, VCT, ECT, VE, EQ Ratio, Airflow, Baro, Humidity, etc, etc) into consideration before outputting a signal.

I've created a couple images to explain my reason behind disabling the network. These images are a representation, and an idea of the strategy used for both operations. There are many many factors that go here, but for a 1+1=2 equation, that is probably the best I could come up.
Neural Network.jpgDisabled Neural Network.jpg

As you can see from the Enabled Neural Network, there is too much going on, so when a lot of people say they tune their VE tables but don't see a change, the image helps to show why you probably wouldn't get the end result you wanted. The ECU is calculating every sensor used in the Neural Network process before actually executing it's end result. The trick people use here to get fueling inline while keeping this network enabled is to scale the fuel injectors, which I've seen done 10 years ago on the Ford platform, but nothing since until now.

With the network disabled, you get to take control of the fueling process to get your desired AFR. This may take longer to tune then usual since you will have to re-do your VE tables and fight your adaptive trims to get fueling inline. I get -/+ 3% STFTs on cams, strokers, bigger injectors, superchargers with LTFTs @ 0%! (I guess to me disabling it is the right way to go.)

[larrySS]

but is it safe when network disabled? the ve not working any more . even the o2 sensors, so what's the point for disabling it if u not running SC or Turbo ?

[RonSSnova]

So the VE table we "see" isn't real? Or is it just the factory starting point?
Look at it in 3D, it's very odd looking.

When done, do you turn NN back on?

You can run the car in open loop, and tune with a WB I suppose. Have to reset the trims first. Too bad we don't have a trim reset button in the scanner like we do on the GM stuff.

And of course the injector scaling needs to be close to start with.

Ron

[Hemituna]

NN is only good on stock or near stock tunes and for lazy DS tuners.
It is really only there to do the stock fueling using known stock values for the stock variable VE engine required for the MDS, VCT and emission compliance.
On a modified engine, it all goes astray... so to get it really correct on a modified or blown tune, NN needs to be disabled.
With MDS off, the cam tables set to more performance suited numbers and using sensed map, they tune up really solid (all fuel trims are within a few %).
You need to take control of every parameter and there are many changes needed as the NN infiltrates many functions.
But once sorted out, everything works as it really should and they drive awesome.
Gone is the disconnected, strange pedal feel that even the factory stock tunes have.
They feel strong, sharp and responsive, get better mpg and even the trans shifts better!
The NN just muddles things.........

[RonSSnova]

Thanks. I don't consider myself lazy, just haven't tuned many NN cars yet.

The throttle thing is confusing. The two tables don't start out as mirror images. Yet it says one has to be the inverse of the other???

At any rate, still learning.

Ron

[Hemituna]

Not calling you lazy ..just over time DS have advised the 'lazy' way of tuning as THE correct way.
True it gets the car out the door but is far from correct...like their normal approach to injector scaling and PE hacking...
On NN PCMs you can pretty much leave the pedal/throttle tables alone...much better to tune the airflow tables to get torque response inline with pedal command.

[Mep_q8]

but is it safe when network disabled? the ve not working any more . even the o2 sensors, so what's the point for disabling it if u not running SC or Turbo ?

It's very safe. The advantage of disabling it is you being in full control of your VE tables, fuel trims, open loop. Why would you leave it up to something that might change your commanded afr 20% just because it was parked in a basement garage in Chicago during summer.

So the VE table we "see" isn't real? Or is it just the factory starting point?
Look at it in 3D, it's very odd looking.

When done, do you turn NN back on?

The factory VE table values are all over the place. That is why some people say not to disable it because you run into extreme fuel trim errors. Although those can be resolved by actually tuning your VE table.

[RonSSnova]

Not calling you lazy ..just over time DS have advised the 'lazy' way of tuning as THE correct way.
True it gets the car out the door but is far from correct...like their normal approach to injector scaling and PE hacking...
On NN PCMs you can pretty much leave the pedal/throttle tables alone...much better to tune the airflow tables to get torque response inline with pedal command.

Got ya.
Thanks

[2therock]

He also asked, "When done, do you turn NN back on?". How about it?

[uarperformance]

2016-05-20.png

[Mep_q8]

He also asked, "When done, do you turn NN back on?". How about it?

I never do. Once your VE tables are inline by switching the NN back on, your fuel trims will start playing around.

[Mep_q8]

2016-05-20.png

good find! and thats supposed to be a simplified version lol

[uarperformance]

Thanks

[Hemituna]

No, it stays disabled.
If you enable ANN, your VE changes are gone

He also asked, "When done, do you turn NN back on?". How about it?

[waynehartwig]

So...
What is Sensed MAP?
and
What is Baro Learn?

[wrc]

I was just reading through this thread to further my education. Looking at my tune, I do not see a switch for the NN, does my 2010 Jeep SRT have that option? If not do I need to worry about it when working on the VE table?
Thanks

[Mep_q8]

I was just reading through this thread to further my education. Looking at my tune, I do not see a switch for the NN, does my 2010 Jeep SRT have that option? If not do I need to worry about it when working on the VE table?
Thanks

No it doesn't, the 392ci and newer VVT Hemis have Neural Network. The 6.1 SRT8 is such a fun motor to upgrade as the OS is easy to control.

[WS6HUMMER]

With the network disabled, you get to take control of the fueling process to get your desired AFR. This may take longer to tune then usual since you will have to re-do your VE tables and fight your adaptive trims to get fueling inline. I get -/+ 3% STFTs on cams, strokers, bigger injectors, superchargers with LTFTs @ 0%! (I guess to me disabling it is the right way to go.)

Does this mean with the NN off I can use LTFT's to tune the VE for parth throttle driving? The reason I ask is because I just dynotuned a 5.7 Hemi via VE (WOT only) with the NN off, car picked up 20whp but after the owner drove it a few miles it started throwing lean codes. I now know this is because the the stock VE is way off, so tuning the light throttle area of the VE via fuel trims would make it go a little easier and faster since the car doesn't have a wideband permanently installed.

[Mep_q8]

Yes sir you can.

It's a pain in the ass when you disable them though so keep that in mind. WOT tuning is easy cakes but most of my time spent tuning is for idle, cruise and transient.

[WS6HUMMER]

Yes sir you can.

It's a pain in the ass when you disable them though so keep that in mind. WOT tuning is easy cakes but most of my time spent tuning is for idle, cruise and transient.

Thanks for the confirmation, guess that's what I'm gonna do. Got the WOT tuned on the dyno but the rest of the VE needs a lot of work. I just didn't want to have to reinstall a wideband if could use ltft's. It's a stock car with headers so I'm hoping it won't be too much of a pain.