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Thread: Let's talk Neural Network.

  1. #21
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    Any tips for tuning on boosted applications? How are you using wideband to log Fuel Air error? I'm running into these issues and wouldn't mind some help.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by VPT View Post
    Any tips for tuning on boosted applications? How are you using wideband to log Fuel Air error? I'm running into these issues and wouldn't mind some help.
    There is no diff NA versus boosted for 90% of the cruising and idle tuning. Only difference is your transition to WOT timing and fuel, which you want to be sooner on a boosted car. You have to make a math for your wideband and commanded AFR to have the air fuel error spit out. Not hard, check out the scanner forum section (non vehicle make specific section).

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner WS6HUMMER's Avatar
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    OK, got this car off the NN and its happy for the most part, now the owner is saying it lopes and is sluggish when cold. Sounds like its lean on startup to me, any tips from anyone who's been here? I'm thinking about adding some fuel in the F/A Cold enrich table.
    99 T/A WS6, original LS1 turbo

  4. #24
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    This thing have a cam in it or stock?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06300CSRT8 View Post
    This thing have a cam in it or stock?
    No It's just a bolt on car, it wanted way more fuel in the VE though when I turned the NN off.
    99 T/A WS6, original LS1 turbo

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6HUMMER View Post
    No It's just a bolt on car, it wanted way more fuel in the VE though when I turned the NN off.
    Yep, when you turn off NN, VE generally needs 10-15% added. That indicates just how much NN is modifying the fueling.
    So now NN is off, you must take control of cold start fuel, as NN used to do a lot of this for u.
    Use the F/A cold enrich table or airflow VE/engine temp table and multiplier to get it right.
    Will need a bit of fuel, but only takes a couple of starts to sort it.

  7. #27
    Advanced Tuner WS6HUMMER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    Yep, when you turn off NN, VE generally needs 10-15% added. That indicates just how much NN is modifying the fueling.
    So now NN is off, you must take control of cold start fuel, as NN used to do a lot of this for u.
    Use the F/A cold enrich table or airflow VE/engine temp table and multiplier to get it right.
    Will need a bit of fuel, but only takes a couple of starts to sort it.
    Thanks!
    99 T/A WS6, original LS1 turbo

  8. #28
    Not to thread jack, but I've been working on a NN disabled tune on my very minor bolt on car just to get a heads up for when I start modding this winter. Through all the help and guides I have gotten I have never heard of anyone changing cam numbers as Hemituna stated. Unless its for a aftermarket cam I suppose. Maybe I just misread this, but I want to make sure I'm not missing anything.

    Also- even with just a exhaust, headers, CAI car I prefer NN off after learning more and spending more time with a Wide band. NN on vs Off I trap about 4-5mph faster on avg. Only issue I'm having is a cold start deal which I have in another thread...

  9. #29
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    Good stuff, one thing that I am starting to realize is that even though earlier NGC3-CAN applications don't have a full blown NN, they certainly have some of the basic logic of it embedded to how it works, and is the cause of some of the quirks of the airflow and torque modeling.

    One major missing piece is a basic torque table, yes we have one for idle, we have a torque loss table, and some other max torque factor tables, but no basic "I want this much torque at this throttle or airflow." The logic is screwy, the PCM starts off calculating the torque of the engine based on predefined factors of airflow, engine displacement, etc, which makes the rest of the entire tune meaningless. My PCM thinks my max engine torque is ~430ft lbs, no matter what. So even at full tilt of 18psi on my 426ci, my airflow PID will always just read out 430ft/lbs x the airflow factor which equals some stupid low airflow. Wish I had a way to tell the PCM I make much more torque than that.

  10. #30
    I tune every vehicle with NN on. After some initial mis-steps, I've got it down pretty good.

  11. #31
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    Its one of those things....some O/S's like it on, some don't.
    You can get a reasonable result either way, but
    it does depend on how particular you are.
    NN on is often the quickest way to get a tune done.



    Quote Originally Posted by FlyinRyan View Post
    I tune every vehicle with NN on. After some initial mis-steps, I've got it down pretty good.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyinRyan View Post
    I tune every vehicle with NN on. After some initial mis-steps, I've got it down pretty good.
    I've done both ways. From what I've seen if tuning for anything non cammed, either boosted or N/A, leaving the NN on works well. As soon as a cam with remotely low idle vacuum is introduced it becomes a headache. The vacuum variance between idle and part throttle becomes so minimal it is hard to get good fuel trims for both because there is no way to target an rpm and load at the same time. Having the ability to use the VE table on larger cams to change the idle area as well as the same load level at a different RPM really helps bring fuel trims in check across the board.
    Last edited by mxatunerjg; 10-03-2016 at 07:47 PM.

  13. #33
    Advanced Tuner WS6HUMMER's Avatar
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    The only one that I've done that had the NN I turned it off, it was almost like starting from scratch with the VE but when I finished it made a big difference. That was one happy customer.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6HUMMER View Post
    The only one that I've done that had the NN I turned it off, it was almost like starting from scratch with the VE but when I finished it made a big difference. That was one happy customer.
    I tuned one for a friend (with a blower), turned the NN off, and spent a lot of time on the VE. When I gave him back his car he said it drove better than when it was brand new. I never drove the car new, so I took his word for it, but he's literally thrilled with the car now.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  15. #35
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    I was having some issues getting fine control of fueling and didn?t want to fudge up a perfectly good table to get the car running better.

    I shut off the Neural Network and then dialed the heck out of the VE tables (turned both banks on). My goodness, this car runs completely differently and even sounds so much meaner at WOT.

    If you shut the NN off, you are definitely going to need to drive, log, and tune the piss out of the car but from my experience it is 100% the way to go to make a better driving car. It?s just not going to be good for the ?turn and burn? tuner shop that wants to just slap a car on a dyno and call it a day after 1 hour on the rollers.

    You have to get that VE dialed in for all of the load and rpm ranges to have a well mannered Daily Driver.

    Again,100% the way to go in my book.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WS6HUMMER View Post
    No It's just a bolt on car, it wanted way more fuel in the VE though when I turned the NN off.
    Yes, from my experience you have to add quite a bit to some areas of the VE Tables when you turn NN off.

  17. #37
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    IMHO the ANN is absolutely the way to go. However... As of right now there isn't any way to actually modify its paramaters. I've heard that HP tuners is working on a way of doing this. Till then I guess disabling is the only way to go for highly modded engines.

  18. #38
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    I'm not a big Dodge guy but it seems like if you disable it, do the SD tuning, and then re-enable it, things work good. Like I say, maybe I haven't done any heavy mods where this might be an issue but for the stuff I've done it has been fine.

    Can someone refute that?

  19. #39
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    Trying to revive an old thread here since it has been many years and maybe some of the opinions are starting to align more than they did back then?
    I am tuning my 2012 JKU that is all stock powertrain, but has a lift and 37" heavy tires. Mostly bumped up shifts and TCC mph 20%, but also adjusting the VVT and spark for more low end torque. Then I needed to get air/fuel back inline, so I disabled the ANN and have been doing the SD tuning. I also seen the NN trainer, but not really thinking it is worth the credits for a stock powertrain...

    I am torn on the opinions that say the manual VE adjusted table is or is not taken into account when you turn back on NN. I am hoping it is taken into account since I am dialing it in.

    I did not see anyone say specifically if they tune with the NN on or if they turn it on after dialing things in. Also sounds like having a stock engine then it is good practice to not leave it disabled.

    Lastly, clearing the adaptive with HPT Scanner software.... I did not see a place to clear fuel trims, so wondering what all clearing adaptive does... learned spark retard, NN, throttle body?

  20. #40
    Well on all of my supercharged pentastar setups i tune the NN. Feel it isn't really tuned if you turn it off on a 6. Lol