Ver 3.0 Bug and POOR CUST SERVICE

[thoweth]

Several emails about the problem and the final answer is:
"software version 3.0 has a much more robust dtc polling feature than previous versions, if its detecting dtc's its because they are being set and the software is detecting them. It is not a glitch.
William Henn
HP Tuners LLC"



How about reading the problem, reading the Tune and other data supplied, and staying within the scope/context of the problem. Simple problem solving techniques. This answer is complete BS. The problem is not that there is a DTC, it is that it is picking up the DTC and the Tune has the DTC turned off.

Details: HP Tuners Problem

Version 3.0.56 has the following DTCs that will not clear:
0x7E8: P0036 - HO2S Heater Control Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 2) (Permanant)
0x7E8: P0056 - HO2S Heater Control Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 2) (Permanant)
Theses codes are turned off on the Tune file.

I loaded an old program, Version 2.24.1170 and it shows no DTCs

[Keith@HPTuners]

Bill is right.

Even though you disable these DTC's, some of them still report DTC's erroneously through the new extended methods. It's not something we can just detect as "Oh this PCM does it right, but this PCM doesn't...". It's controlled by the PCM and the PCM's code. There are many bugs in the way PCM's report various things. We have to work through them, and in most cases, we are forced to live with them until the manufacturer releases an update or a fix (which is rare).

It's something we'll look into further in the future though.

Hardly a reason to complain about poor customer service though.

2.24 doesn't show these DTC's because it uses only a few DTC request methods, not the full SAE standard. This is also why some vehicles would show DTC's that 2.24 didn't detect (and 3.0 now does...)

[Keith@HPTuners]

And btw, you've waited a long time to make your first post. Welcome to being an active member of the forum.

If you find more issues please let us know and we'll do our best to resolve them. Most of the HPT Engineers are active on this forum.

[thoweth]

The response, "Hardly a reason to complain about poor customer service though", is enough of a reason to complain about poor customer service. The customer is always right! If we did not buy your company's products you would not have a job. If the original reply would have been as detailed as yours then that would be true. Only monopolies get by with telling customers "TOO BAD TOO SAD". I have been impressed with the product, but not any more.

[Keith@HPTuners]

We know we can't please everyone. We do our best though to please as many as we can.

It's a tough product to get right for every application, every time. As a tool manufacturer, we can only do so much, and within the limits of the controllers the manufacturers produce.

[Keith@HPTuners]

I'd also like to add, if our support gave as lengthy replies as we (engineers) do on the forum, support would be so back logged and customers would have very high delays through the normal support channels.

By posting on the forum, we can respond to your request. Other users can respond to your request. And, it's here for other users to find via search in the future, thus saving every ones time.

[gmtech16450yz]

The response, "Hardly a reason to complain about poor customer service though", is enough of a reason to complain about poor customer service. The customer is always right! If we did not buy your company's products you would not have a job. If the original reply would have been as detailed as yours then that would be true. Only monopolies get by with telling customers "TOO BAD TOO SAD". I have been impressed with the product, but not any more.

Nope. Sorry but the customer ISN'T always right. In this case, the customer is wrong. And I'm sure this 2011 Corvette is a dedicated track car also? If not, why have you turned off 75% of the diagnostic codes in your street vehicle?

As far as customer service, the guys at HPTuners are pretty d@mn amazing at how fast and accurately they respond to requests for support. How many companies can you ask a question on an internet forum and have the OWNER of the company respond within minutes? And how many companies ask the customers what features they want or what cars they want supported, and that company does it?

And as far as this forum goes, you're on one of the best in the internet world right here. It's the best because there are a TON of VERY smart guys willing to help d@mn near ANYONE. All you have to do is ask. And contribute also. That's how it all works, take some and give some. Try giving more than you take, and you'll end up getting more than you give. Lol. Confusing but true.

And as far as Keith or Bill or the other guys not having a job if we didn't buy their products? Yeah I'm betting that they'd have absolutely NO problem finding a job elsewhere. And probably for twice what they're making and half the hours per week that they put in now. These guys are available for support like 24/7, and they still have to run a company, build software, build hardware, fix bugs and add new features. I can't imagine how many hours a week a guy like Keith puts in to his company.

[La RPM]

The response, "Hardly a reason to complain about poor customer service though", is enough of a reason to complain about poor customer service. The customer is always right! If we did not buy your company's products you would not have a job. If the original reply would have been as detailed as yours then that would be true. Only monopolies get by with telling customers "TOO BAD TOO SAD". I have been impressed with the product, but not any more.

you sound like a recently divorced woman with jawline short haircut asking to speak with a manager because you're trying to use expired coupons.

I bet you drive a minivan and smoke menthols too.

[15PSI]

La RPM - That is funny. gmtech16450yz: Your response echos 99.99% of the folks on this forum. HP Tuners forum is first class and the owners and engineers of HP Tuners are in a class of their own. Well said.

[Wacker]

Nope. Sorry but the customer ISN'T always right. In this case, the customer is wrong. And I'm sure this 2011 Corvette is a dedicated track car also? If not, why have you turned off 75% of the diagnostic codes in your street vehicle?

As far as customer service, the guys at HPTuners are pretty d@mn amazing at how fast and accurately they respond to requests for support. How many companies can you ask a question on an internet forum and have the OWNER of the company respond within minutes? And how many companies ask the customers what features they want or what cars they want supported, and that company does it?

And as far as this forum goes, you're on one of the best in the internet world right here. It's the best because there are a TON of VERY smart guys willing to help d@mn near ANYONE. All you have to do is ask. And contribute also. That's how it all works, take some and give some. Try giving more than you take, and you'll end up getting more than you give. Lol. Confusing but true.

And as far as Keith or Bill or the other guys not having a job if we didn't buy their products? Yeah I'm betting that they'd have absolutely NO problem finding a job elsewhere. And probably for twice what they're making and half the hours per week that they put in now. These guys are available for support like 24/7, and they still have to run a company, build software, build hardware, fix bugs and add new features. I can't imagine how many hours a week a guy like Keith puts in to his company.

^^^^I like this man more with every post he makes..

[jpliss]

I do agree with gmtech16450yz, sorry but the customer is not always right!

As a matter of fact most of my customers are wrong, it is the reason they come to me. They accept they are wrong and bring the work to me since I am the professional. I work with my customers and they work with me. It is a 2 way street.

Now for HP tuners, im sorry but their support has been excellent. Even when it was not what I wanted to hear it has always been excellent.

I support this company since the product they have is great and keeps getting better.

I wont belittle the original poster but I will say that I believe from my experience that you are way off base.

[thoweth]

It seems that some of you are dumb asses ("La RPM" per ad hominem) or trolls. The whole point of the feedback was that the new version HAS a bug, which was explained. This incident was an FYI to the engineering team. The only way to gather real world information/data is to receive feedback from the End User. I have worked for the USAF for over 30 years and we never negate the feedback from the users (i.e. Blue Suiters). If we cannot solve the problem we always bring in our OEM partners to solve the problem. If someone was to tell the using command that "the errors reported are because we are so great at our job that our programs give false signals (e.g. codes that are not suppose to be reported because of the PCM tune)" or "Hardly a reason to complain," we would be standing in front of the General the next day.

The customer is always right in regards to the customer service (not symptoms/problems, etc.), regardless because this is a subjective value. The complaint on this issue was the poor initial feedback from HP Tuners, not the DTC issue. As for the commenters, if you run your business with the posture that the customer is an idiot you only have one-time customers. The key to long-term lifespan in the civilian world is repeat customers and customer referrals. In my world if we lose the confidence of the MAJCOM they will lobby HQAF for LM, NG, Boeing, etc. and we lose our only customer and the Base closes. We always strive for "excellence in all we do." The warfighter is always right, whether he actually is nor not.

The answer from HP Tuners should have been something to the effect of, "Thanks for the information and we will investigate this and make changes to the next version if it is needed." Very simple customer relations and gathering of data.

I want to add that during the first stages of problem solving steps Alonzo Williams handled the situation with excellent customer service and proper problem solving skills. He had me do certain tests to validate the errors and all the test failed. This with the documentation of the fails were proof of the bug. Thanks for your professionalism Alonzo!

[jtrosky]

I have to agree with @thoweth here. If the inital response from support contained the two sentencens that Keith gave is his repsonse, at the end of post #2, then there would have been no issue to begin with. The problem is that the inital response from support was just not a complete answer and didn't actually help the user understand the problem at all - it just caused more confuson and frustration.

If the support engineer didn't know how to answer the question properly (or didn't have time), he should have asked an engineer to respond and told the customer that he is looking into it further.

Just my two cents. :-)

[Bill@HPTuners]

Unfortunately support doesn't write the code but answers 100% of the email tickets, while we try our best to answer every question as accurately as possible we aren't the people writing the code so their are limits to our knowledge. Thats whey people like Keith try to post additional information here over and above what info support might have at their fingertips. Keith had made a note on the ticket, however if our engineers responded to every ticket where support has 95% of the info we need the engineers would never get any work done. We were very clear it was not a bug though and only being perceived as such, no matter who's mouth it came from it wasn't going to go over well.

[jtrosky]

But the problem is that the answer didn't answer the persons question at all (had nothing to do with who the answer came from). He wasn't asking if 3.0 should or should not be detecting the DTC at all - he was asking why it was still being *reported* when had the software configured to ignore it. The answer really didn't address the question at all - and that is the problem.

I completely understand that the support guys don't have all of the information needed to answer every question. But when they don't, those questions need to go to someone that does have the infromation and can answer the question properly. The user shouldn't have to complain about the lack of a proper answer on a public forum in order to get the proper answer - which is what it seemed to take in this case.

I don't have all of the details, but it just seems that a complete and appropiate answer should have been provided via the support case - with a follow-up from support, either after they consulted with an engineer or just forwarded the ticket to an engineer to begin with.

But different people have different expectations, I guess (it seems most people feel that this was handled appropiately).

[Bill@HPTuners]

I completely understand that the support guys don't have all of the information needed to answer every question. But when they don't, those questions need to go to someone that does have the infromation and can answer the question properly. The user shouldn't have to complain about the lack of a proper answer on a public forum in order to get the proper answer - which is what it seemed to take in this case.

It did go to someone and that was the information we were given so we responded with what information we had. Support always tries to go out of its way to gather as much info as possible before responding to a customer.

[GHuggins]

Several emails about the problem and the final answer is:
"software version 3.0 has a much more robust dtc polling feature than previous versions, if its detecting dtc's its because they are being set and the software is detecting them. It is not a glitch.
William Henn
HP Tuners LLC"



How about reading the problem, reading the Tune and other data supplied, and staying within the scope/context of the problem. Simple problem solving techniques. This answer is complete BS. The problem is not that there is a DTC, it is that it is picking up the DTC and the Tune has the DTC turned off.

Details: HP Tuners Problem

Version 3.0.56 has the following DTCs that will not clear:
0x7E8: P0036 - HO2S Heater Control Circuit (Bank 1, Sensor 2) (Permanant)
0x7E8: P0056 - HO2S Heater Control Circuit (Bank 2, Sensor 2) (Permanant)
Theses codes are turned off on the Tune file.

I loaded an old program, Version 2.24.1170 and it shows no DTCs

Not looking to get in the middle of anything here... Just stating that up front... BUT I don't see a tune posted here? Just wondering because most newer vehicles will set dtc's even if they're set to no error... USUALLY you have to set several corresponding dtc's to no error to get them off... Just how the newer vehicles work.

[Russ K]

Not looking to get in the middle of anything here... Just stating that up front... BUT I don't see a tune posted here? Just wondering because most newer vehicles will set dtc's even if they're set to no error... USUALLY you have to set several corresponding dtc's to no error to get them off... Just how the newer vehicles work.

2010 & up vehicles will report permanent DTC's.

http://stop-the-star-program.3084.x6...td5008316.html

Russ Kemp

[mowton]

2010 & up vehicles will report permanent DTC's.

http://stop-the-star-program.3084.x6...td5008316.html

Russ Kemp

Great info Russ, thanks. Has anyone verified if the UTDP works or not. Starting to see some customers with similar DTC and readiness issues. Having left Long Island and living in Florida...there is no inspection here :-)

Ed M

[GHuggins]

2010 & up vehicles will report permanent DTC's.

http://stop-the-star-program.3084.x6...td5008316.html

Russ Kemp

This is what I was referring to Russ. Typically you can set the other like DTC's to no error and you won't have any further setting dtc's.

Just saying, No issue was posted on the forum for replies - No reason to jump on support for this