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Thread: Gen4 idle tuning guide

  1. #21
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    Awesome. I wish I had known all that 6 months ago (I'm sure you do too, lol)

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    Awesome. I wish I had known all that 6 months ago (I'm sure you do too, lol)
    Nah, I enjoy the process. Once the car is dialed in, it's boring, there is nothing left to do lol.

    Then the wallet opens back up.

  3. #23
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    I know the feeling. I'm on the fence about adding longtubes.. but I know that will open up a whole can of worms tuning wise, especially on my older ECM
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  4. #24
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Thank you Mike, that is close to the procedure I write about (learned most of it from EFI live thread by Joel/Hymey). You can make the process a bit easier by using the VCM controls to disable the adaptive spark. A little less tune code to develop. Also by maxing the Final Min air and zeroing the proportional and integral, you can set the Max/Max-brake settings to fine tune the maximum amount of blade that will be needed in both coast down (max) and stationary idle, ac on in gear (if an automatic) (max-brake). Disable the adaptive sparkas above and set values in both scenarios so idle rpm and commanded spark are met, The spark biasing will tell you if you have too much blade or not enough.



    When that is done, add about .25 to the Max-Brake to compensate for cold starts.

    Settiing the Final Min Air -- Set Proportional and Integral back to stock and lower by 25% (again, depends on size of cam) and interpolate the integral from the 0 value to both the + and _ 512 cells. Select a Final Min Air value..say 12-14 depending on cam size and populate the entire table. Idle the car and blip the throttle, the faster the rpms drop, the more air you need to add. Add until the ramp down is like 2-3 seconds. Longer and you have too much air, shorter and not enough.

    Setting the idle in the E38/67 setups can sometimes be easy peasy and sometimes a bit harder. The Follower tables in the P-I section will help return the rpms to idle when in gear coasting closed throttle as well. increase the delay and reduce the decay values.

    I am going to give your process a shot as I am always open to new things. In tuning there is always more than 1 way to skin the cat...:-)

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    I know the feeling. I'm on the fence about adding longtubes.. but I know that will open up a whole can of worms tuning wise, especially on my older ECM
    We did ARH LTs on my Dad's stock C6 a few months back. Even with cats, I could not tune out the smell. I still have no idea why that car stunk so bad. It had the typical catless cammed smell.

    We ended up just putting Z06 manifolds on. The smell went away, but it felt like it lost about 30 ft/lbs of torque, so I would imagine you will gain huge amount of torque with some LTs on your car.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mowton View Post
    Thank you Mike, that is close to the procedure I write about (learned most of it from EFI live thread by simon/hymen). You can make the process a bit easier by using the VCM controls to disable the adaptive spark. A little less tune code to develop. Also by maxing the Final Min air and zeroing the proportional and integral, you can set the Max/Max-brake settings to fine tune the maximum amount of blade that will be needed in both coast down (max) and stationary idle, ac on in gear (if an automatic) (max-brake). Disable the adaptive sparkas above and set values in both scenarios so idle rpm and commanded spark are met, The spark biasing will tell you if you have too much blade or not enough.



    When that is done, add about .25 to the Max-Brake to compensate for cold starts.

    Settiing the Final Min Air -- Set Proportional and Integral back to stock and lower by 25% (again, depends on size of cam) and interpolate the integral from the 0 value to both the + and _ 512 cells. Select a Final Min Air value..say 12-14 depending on cam size and populate the entire table. Idle the car and blip the throttle, the faster the rpms drop, the more air you need to add. Add until the ramp down is like 2-3 seconds. Longer and you have too much air, shorter and not enough.

    Setting the idle in the E38/67 setups can sometimes be easy peasy and sometimes a bit harder. The Follower tables in the P-I section will help return the rpms to idle when in gear coasting closed throttle as well. increase the delay and reduce the decay values.

    I am going to give your process a shot as I am always open to new things. In tuning there is always more than 1 way to skin the cat...:-)

    Ed M
    Hi Ed, yes I read that whole thread! That is what inspired me to go down this road. I did it the way Hymey did at first, but the car wouldn't idle cold because of the low max idle area setting. I ended up having to set it pretty close to stock, which seemed to defeat the purpose of having a "small window of correction". Plus I could never quite figure out how to really set the proper base airflow. I know he was drilling holes in the throttle bodies to help trim the airflow correction and I didn't want to do that, that is why I wanted to embark on my own process.

    In my tutorial, spark correction is already disabled because the car goes out of "idle mode" as soon as you blip the throttle, then the main spark table is referenced.

    You did just give me an idea though. It is much easier to dial in the TPS with max idle area because the throttle will not fluctuate one bit and it requires no "pedaling" on first startup. What you can do is find the idle with max idle area, then simply use my method to find the base airflow that matches the TPS you found with the max idle area method.

    That would probably be a much quicker way, actually. I only didn't post that in the original post because some people with older ECUs don't have max idle area.
    Last edited by BigMike42; 06-10-2016 at 09:07 AM.

  7. #27
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    Yeah, the smell is honestly my biggest concern about doing them. I gutted a set of Z06 cats for a while but I just couldn't take the smell so I put a replacement set on to get rid of it. They have survived surprisingly well given the whole supercharger + meth injection thing.. I even left them on at the 1/2 mile races a while back and they survived.

    I've heard ARH uses some pretty crappy cats, though I'm not sure whose are any better. I'm cheap so I'll probably do Hinson LT's if I do get them.. not sure how well their cats work..

    I do expect I'll pick up a good bit of torque from them if I do them--but if the smell is bad they'll end up coming right back off. I came in to work a few times smelling like I had been trying to off myself in a closed garage with the car running when I had those gutted Z06 cats on it
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    Yeah, the smell is honestly my biggest concern about doing them. I gutted a set of Z06 cats for a while but I just couldn't take the smell so I put a replacement set on to get rid of it. They have survived surprisingly well given the whole supercharger + meth injection thing.. I even left them on at the 1/2 mile races a while back and they survived.

    I've heard ARH uses some pretty crappy cats, though I'm not sure whose are any better. I'm cheap so I'll probably do Hinson LT's if I do get them.. not sure how well their cats work..

    I do expect I'll pick up a good bit of torque from them if I do them--but if the smell is bad they'll end up coming right back off. I came in to work a few times smelling like I had been trying to off myself in a closed garage with the car running when I had those gutted Z06 cats on it
    Yeah I inherited ARH headers on my G8 and the cats don't do much. I fixed the smell by going to E50 mix. Yep, I used to come into work stinking when I had a catless, cammed vette. Every vette I have been in leaks exhaust into the cabin, even stock ones.

    Kooks makes green cats that are supposed to clean up the majority of the smell, but they are 'spensive.

  9. #29
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    I've been saying the same thing about C6's leaking for a while now and everyone on corvetteforum says I'm crazy. I pressurized the whole exhaust system and sprayed it down with soapy water trying to find a leak and couldn't find any. I don't know if it comes in through the back hatch somehow or what.

    I was behind a C6 the other day that I'm pretty sure had LT's and no cats and the smell was horrendous

    Oh well, sooner or later I'll probably try LT's w/cats and see what happens.

    I saw another company, I can't remember their name though, that made cats that would survive high HP applications and supposedly get rid of smells.. but they were like $600 a piece expensive... HJS I think it was?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    I've been saying the same thing about C6's leaking for a while now and everyone on corvetteforum says I'm crazy. I pressurized the whole exhaust system and sprayed it down with soapy water trying to find a leak and couldn't find any. I don't know if it comes in through the back hatch somehow or what.

    I was behind a C6 the other day that I'm pretty sure had LT's and no cats and the smell was horrendous

    Oh well, sooner or later I'll probably try LT's w/cats and see what happens.

    I saw another company, I can't remember their name though, that made cats that would survive high HP applications and supposedly get rid of smells.. but they were like $600 a piece expensive... HJS I think it was?
    http://www.kooksheaders.com/green

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    I've been saying the same thing about C6's leaking for a while now and everyone on corvetteforum says I'm crazy. I pressurized the whole exhaust system and sprayed it down with soapy water trying to find a leak and couldn't find any. I don't know if it comes in through the back hatch somehow or what.

    I was behind a C6 the other day that I'm pretty sure had LT's and no cats and the smell was horrendous
    I think the C6 Body Pressure flap (behind the right rear speaker) are somewhat poor fitting and do end up letting more in at a standstill as the car ages. Just my theory tho! Will be installing Hinson headers in the next couple weeks (they're sitting out in the garage now) so I'll let you know the smell change (my wife will certainly comment on it). Dave's flex fuel setup is showing up today so I do plan to flip over to using mostly e85 when possible to avoid the smell as I chose catless.

    (and apologies to mike for cluttering up this thread--I can clean it up some if you want)
    Last edited by schpenxel; 06-10-2016 at 10:13 AM.

  12. #32
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    I've thought about just going E85 too.. all of the Sheetz stations around me have it now... I'd need a fuel system though.

    Yeah let me know how the smell turns out. I'm going to get the Hinson ones WITH cats probably..
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  13. #33
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    E85 is definitely wife approved. The wife commented on the lack of smell from the car. There is an odor, but it smells like tequila lol. I love the smell.

    I did the flex fuel mod for about $100. Used 3 of those russel fittings and bought a used C5 fuel line on ebay. Worst part is trying to crimp that stupid molex connector properly.
    Last edited by BigMike42; 06-10-2016 at 11:54 AM.

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    For those wondering about the max idle area method..

    The strategy doesn't change, but it may be easier to find optimal tps using max idle area since it's a bit more direct. What you do is max out base airflow to 64 g/s and set percent max (idle->airflow->effective area) to around 1.10 to start. Percent max - brake is for autos. Then you go up or down in .02% increments until you find a TPS% you like for your idle.

    After you find that, then you can do the method I outlined in the original post and find the base airflow number that matches the TPS you found. Don't forget to set percent max back..this is max allowed TPS and if you forget to set it back, it won't start when cold.

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    EXCELLENT THREAD!!!

    THIS is the reason I like to check in on here! You guys are sharing what you've figured out and we all learn from it. I know it takes time, A LOT of time to write out this stuff. I don't know if any of you believe in Karma, but you're racking up some good Karma points here! Even I have picked up a few things from this thread and I'll try some different things too. Ed is right, there's many different ways to tune, and they may all get good results in the end. I didn't see throttle follower mentioned here though, if you haven't touched on those tables it might be nice to add that stuff.

    GOOD JOB GUYS!!! This is what a forum should be about. I'm impressed and proud to be a small part of it. This forum is full of some hella smart people! My idea of "smart" isn't knowing everything, it's knowing HOW to learn new things you know nothing about. After I don't know how many years/decades of playing with this tuning software stuff, I learn something new damn near everyday, from damn near every source, not just my own "experiments". Thanks and keep it up guys!
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  16. #36
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    John, I touched on the Follower in the PI tab above. Use it to help with idle down like a dashpot) when coming to a stop or blipping the throttle in neutral. There is a torque based follower as well and never really knew the difference so I kind of adjust both by softening the ramp down.

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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz View Post
    EXCELLENT THREAD!!!

    THIS is the reason I like to check in on here! You guys are sharing what you've figured out and we all learn from it. I know it takes time, A LOT of time to write out this stuff. I don't know if any of you believe in Karma, but you're racking up some good Karma points here! Even I have picked up a few things from this thread and I'll try some different things too. Ed is right, there's many different ways to tune, and they may all get good results in the end. I didn't see throttle follower mentioned here though, if you haven't touched on those tables it might be nice to add that stuff.

    GOOD JOB GUYS!!! This is what a forum should be about. I'm impressed and proud to be a small part of it. This forum is full of some hella smart people! My idea of "smart" isn't knowing everything, it's knowing HOW to learn new things you know nothing about. After I don't know how many years/decades of playing with this tuning software stuff, I learn something new damn near everyday, from damn near every source, not just my own "experiments". Thanks and keep it up guys!
    I agree, without the forum I wouldn't know where to start, so I wanted to give back.

  18. #38
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    This is a great thread. How do you get around the car running rich after you flash it? If I warm my car up and change the tune and flash it back it runs rich for 20 minutes. It would take me all day to make a few changes and then wait for the rich condition to go away.

  19. #39
    Senior Tuner DSteck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by openwheel25 View Post
    This is a great thread. How do you get around the car running rich after you flash it? If I warm my car up and change the tune and flash it back it runs rich for 20 minutes. It would take me all day to make a few changes and then wait for the rich condition to go away.
    Go do a wide open throttle pull. The rich after reflash has to do with the injector tip temperature calculation which gets reset after a flash. It takes a while to stabilize. I just had to battle this on a CTS-V on the dyno, so every time we flashed it, we immediately made a pull.

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  20. #40
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    Dsteck posted EOIT calcs a couple years ago and while it didnt completely stop the raw gas smell for me it made a massive improvement. It probably helps that I'm now running 200 cpi cats but I did run catless for several months after using EOIT tweaks. You guys are light years ahead of my in tuning experience so I'm just putting this out there in the hope you havent already done it or discounted it as a fix.
    I presume this guide is for E38s as my E40 screens and options look different, correct?


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