WOT tuning 6.1 5spt auto, 9psi boost...something pulling timing?

[ngc1068]

Hi,

Have an 09 Challenger, has an Edelbrock E-Force variant of the Eaton TVS-2300 blower, has a pulley setup making about 9psi of boost.

I've tuned VE, and am getting plenty of fuel shown on the wideband for various PR's both part throttle and under WOT... so now trying to tune WOT, and running into some issues under WOT.

Going WOT in second gear, the car comes up on boost starts to develop torque and then starts sputtering, I can see in the log that the ECU is pulling timing.

The tune I have currently is based on one that was developed for me by a CMR tuner, that read with HPTuners, and then revised for larger injectors. Basically other than injectors DW 72lbs, and VE table data, I've made no changes. Car is stock 6.1, catless, has new NGK 2315's gapped at .035.

I'm attaching two logs, first is a WOT 2nd gear pull which I abort when I notice is start falling on its face, and the second log is basically the same but its a 3rd gear pull, which I also aborted.

I should also add that I have some logs of the same tune where it just simply hauls ass through the entire pull... and I can't really see any reason for the difference in behavior, example log is the last file attached.

Tune file for the ECU as well as the TCM are included.

Mainly looking to understand where the misfire is coming from and how to get rid of it.

Thanks!

09 SRT8 6.1 5spd auto ECU calibration 5.16.23 rev 5.hpt
09 SRT8 6.1 5spd auto TCM calibration 5.16.23 rev 0.hpt
2nd gear WOT abort on misfire 23-05-16 20-04-38.hpl
3rd gear WOT abort on misfire 23-05-16 20-06-15.hpl

[LilSick]

looks like its dropping a couple of injectors

[LilSick]

5.16.png

see the dips in your log?

5.16a.png

pretty sure the scanner is garbage is anyways...

thats mine ^^^

look at the pw and the rpm : )

[rays04gtx]

# 6 Injector has some issues going on , the other thing is sensed MAP is disabled.






EDIT: after watching the 2nd gear pull, #4 drops out, # 7 # 8 .

[rays04gtx]

5.16.png

see the dips in your log?

5.16a.png

pretty sure the scanner is garbage is anyways...

thats mine ^^^

look at the pw and the rpm : )

Sooooooooooooooooooooo after running the log through layout that is specifically set up for Injectos...........you have a fuel flow issue.



Lilsick..................Add Injector duty to your logs, and see what the duty is when your Injector goes over 20,

[rays04gtx]

here's what it should look like

[LilSick]

yeah my dc had to be over 100%

which is impossible

lol

i think he has something up with his pcm

try a write entire maybe?

[LilSick]

here's what it should look like

not according to rick... not with my stock intake manifold

that sure is purdy tho : )

[PurpleRam]

yeah my dc had to be over 100%

which is impossible

lol

i think he has something up with his pcm

try a write entire maybe?

Injector Duty Cycle is just the percentage of time the injector is activated or commanded open, it’s a calculation of injector pulse. it’s INJ width vs engine rpm, the Pulse Width is a set value , if we use 20 milliseconds as the fastest the injector can open and you are at an RPM where it takes 50 milliseconds to complete intake cycle, then your injector is at 40% duty cycle( 20 milliseconds is 40% of 50 milliseconds). The injector's opening time is 40% of the time it takes the engine to complete 1 cycle. Once the rpm reaches a point where it takes 20 milliseconds to complete a cycle, you are at 100% duty cycle. If you are at an RPM that only takes 15 milliseconds to complete a cycle, the injector pulse width is still 20 milliseconds. At that point calculation can surpass 100% because the engine is spinning faster than the injector can open and close.

IDC is just a calculation of injector open time vs rpm.

rpm X IPW / 1200 = IDC

when we exceed 87% it’s due to , too much fuel command, either because of a bad tune or injectors being to small for the proper AFR for the application.

[LilSick]

thank you

what do you think is up with dudes ^^^ ???

[ngc1068]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I did notice those injectors not firing, but I assumed that loss of pulse to any particular injector was probably a consequence of another issue... Am I correct in thinking that? I was having a misfire problem (turned out to be spark plugs), and I noticed when misfires occurred, the ECU shutoff those injectors involved... I had to assume that is a protective algorithm, that the ECU stops firing injectors (and raw fuel) into misfiring cylinders. So if that thinking is right, it leads me to believe there is some other fault occurring now that is shutting off injectors.... only now I can't correllate it to anything, like I was able to with the misfires.

Am I right in thinking HP Tuners is only able to report the sampled value of the commanded pulse width... which is to say there is no actual feedback from the injector driver circuits back to the ECU, to confirm or measure what the actual width of any given pulse is? or do I have that wrong. If it is a drop off in the commanded pulse to those injectors, it makes me think there must be some algorithm or logic fault condition that has been detected in the ECU, and then the ECU is as a consequence shutting off command to pulse those injectors?

What conditions have authority to cause the ECU to shutoff injectors?

[PurpleRam]

thank you

what do you think is up with dudes ^^^ ???

I’m not sure, I don’t want to blame it on the ecu, I believe ngc has already swapped one out,

I didn’t spend too much time on looking through the tune, but the normal stuff looks good, could be a fuel pressure issue, injector runs out, sends feedback to the ecu , ecu pull spark,

I believe the injector sends feedback through voltage, level…… I only guessing

It’s less than 14 lbs of boost , so that’s not the issue.

Are all the MAP values the same for all tables? I’ve had that f/with a tune,

Also in engine diag there is two of the dtc code tables that should be maxed out when running boost

There are a bunch of safety protocols that are not mapped,

[ngc1068]

I?m not sure, I don?t want to blame it on the ecu, I believe ngc has already swapped one out

Yes, this ECU is not original. I got it off Ebay, and I can return it if it is indeed truly bad.

I can confirm the old ECU was defintely bad, I was the idiot who personally pulled the wires out of injector harness #1, saw the spark as they hard-shorted together, and witnessed the engine intantly die. It restarted and barely ran afterwards throwing hard P0201-P0208?would not go into closed loop. With the new ECU flashed with HPT calibration (new ECU had a later operating system, so HPT would not allow to flash my calibration in. The workaround (maybe this was a bad idea?) I came up with was to take a saved stock read of the new ECU (which by the way did match perfectly with a 2010 Stock 6.1 read I found in the repository)?and I opened a compare with my bad ECUs file, and proceeded to manually copy over differences from my old ECU one-by-one on top of the new ECU stock read file and then flash the revised new file into the new ECU.

Engine fired first crank, idled oerfectly went into closed loop, and honestly, since putting in new plugs the misfires are practically non existant.

There were a few things I could not copy?maybe could those settings be behind this issue?

1) Maximum Airflow in my original tuned ECU was 16,247 lb/hr?this new ECU accepts values no larger than 13,003, so I set at 13,003
2) under Engine Diagnostics, Torque Delta old ECU had 1,933lb/ft in all cells, new ECU accepts nothing larger than 966lb/ft, so I set all at 966.
3) under Engine Diagnostics, Torque Delta Fault old cells all were set to 1,933, again, new limits all to 966, so I set all to 966.

Just for clarity sake, there is no option to do a Write Entire. I have Write Calibration, Disable SKIM for retrofit or Do Not Write.

[LilSick]

if it were mine and i seen that smoke i woulda said THANK GOD and called fuel tech : )

i dont have the experience to comment on what the new one would n wouldnt take... i have opinions but gonna keep those to myself

i would get used pcm with the old os and try it - can always sell it if no change

[ngc1068]

i would get used pcm with the old os and try it - can always sell it if no change

I?ve considered having my OE unit repaired. Have to licence another new one with two credits, that I wont be able to sell if another new one doesnt work.

Im skeptical the new ECU is bad honestly, wondering if there is a misfire even with these new plugs. Also, it only does this sporadically, so I cant imagine a hardware fault thats fixes itself every other pull. Lastly, I dont see how more power from the engine stresses an ECU more. Its not really like under WOT its firing the injectors or coils harder, if it were it should malfunction at a certain RPM regardless of MAP.

[PurpleRam]

14lbs refers to the hard limit for the none hellcat hemi os,

In my experience issues that are random are environmental, or wiring.

Was the original tune a Diablo? That would explain the 16xxx air limit and 1933lbs

[ngc1068]

14lbs refers to the hard limit for the none hellcat hemi os,

In my experience issues that are random are environmental, or wiring.

Was the original tune a Diablo? That would explain the 16xxx air limit and 1933lbs

Yes, it was Diablo until about 2017?around that time, I converted to HP Tuners to enable update of the calibration for the larger injectors. Prior to that it had a set of Siemens Deka 60lb injectors that came with the Edelbrock kit?.and of course at 9psi, the 60lb ones were kissing 80+% duty cycle.

[ngc1068]

Here's a new clue. I went out tonight and tried to repeat the behavior and catch another log or two... and noticed that I can't get it to happen in a 3rd gear pull, only happens on a 2nd gear pull... I was confused, so I looked back at the third gear pull I originally posted the other night, and I don't see the issue in that third gear pull... so I think all that is to say...I must have been confused or missed it...but this only happens in a 2nd gear pull, or if I floor it and the trans steps down into second from a higher gear. Does that mean anything? Could it be trans tune related? I have no idea if the Diablo wrote into the TCM, or is the TCM a separate module or part of the ECU? I don't think I read the TCM when I had the old ECU in it. Anyway...any advice or insight is highly appreciated; you guys are the greatest!

P.S. in the TCM I see under Trans/Torque Management/General/Torque Limit/Max Engine its set to 443lb/ft... with the 6.1 and 9psi of boost, I expect it is and should be making allot more torque than 443lb/ft? Does that setting even matter?

[ngc1068]

... the other thing is sensed MAP is disabled.

Finally got around to looking into this, yes sensed map is disabled, looks like it always has been on this car. I looked in the repository and stock files I found for a 2008 and 2010 6.1 both had sensed map disabled... so... I guess it should stay disabled? Not sure why that setting is disabled by default?

[rays04gtx]

p.s. In the tcm i see under trans/torque management/general/torque limit/max engine its set to 443lb/ft... With the 6.1 and 9psi of boost, i expect it is and should be making allot more torque than 443lb/ft? Does that setting even matter?

yes