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Thread: 8 speed turning

  1. #1
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    8 speed turning

    Is there anyway we can get a lead time if any on the 8hp support?

  2. #2
    HPT Employee Engineer@HPT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wickedwhite2012 View Post
    Is there anyway we can get a lead time if any on the 8hp support?
    Unfortunately not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Engineer@HPT View Post
    Unfortunately not.
    Just so you are aware, Being able to open the ZF8 TCM would open up a new market for HPT, Right now it is not possible to take a Mechatronic unit from one Vehicle and put it into another vehicle if there is a different TCM calibration. This would be huge to the large transmission remanufacturing companies, I work for Certified Transmission in Omaha,NE We currently build about 700-800 Transmissions a week, while the ZF8 is just coming onto our radar I do believe it will be a big seller just looking at lower mileage failures.
    Right now the Chrysler WiTech looks at the calibration that is in the TCM, not what it should be according to the VIN# So in our testing, just the beginning phases we have been unable to say install a TCM from a Grand Cherokee into a Dodge RAM.

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    Bump

  5. #5
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    Any update on the ZF8 Support??

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTR View Post
    Right now the Chrysler WiTech looks at the calibration that is in the TCM, not what it should be according to the VIN# So in our testing, just the beginning phases we have been unable to say install a TCM from a Grand Cherokee into a Dodge RAM.
    Fail. WiTech could care less what calibration is in the TCM, WiTech pulls flash updates by VIN. There is a few issues with the whole grand Cherokee valve body to Ram swap theory you may or may not have tried yet, if it's a V6 G.C. It most likely has an 845RE, the Ram will have an 8HP70. Different transmissions, different valve bodies. Not a good idea. The other issue the calibration or flash in TCM will not be compatible with the VIN you are trying to stick it in, no scan tools or even dealer level can go backwards on a flash number and or if you flash the wrong of many available flashes (available by VIN) it renders the TCM useless so your G.C. flash is not compatible with a Ram (VIN) flash which means no tool can flash it. An FCA field tech CAN return a module back to previous flash only IF you had the number written down, but I doubt seeing them helping certified trans. Also considering these transmissions cannot be overhauled, not that they are hard as I went through a couple at the FCA training institute, but no parts are available. Seems like a waste of time for Certified, your radar should have the address for Baxter Dodge, it would probably just save y'all money.

    -So besides HPT unlocking these bad boys for shift point changes and such, hopefully the aftermarket starts making parts so I can actually fix mine when/if it fails, I'd like to see parts as much as tuning capability on the 8-speed!!

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    So Blue Bee, why do you have to try to be a dick? I don't want to get into a pissing match with you so don't even worry about replying.
    You must think that you know more than what you really do, the Witech on MOST cars does pull the cal by VIN, NOT on this application though at least for the TCM, if you actually tried it you would know that. We bought a RAM just for the purpose of testing, and bought a couple transmissions so I could see what we could do with the programming. Certified builds about 35,000 transmissions a year and I think we know the difference between two different units, so we were not trying to install a 845RE VB on a 8HP70. When I installed the "wrong" VB with the wrong Cal, it would not change the cal, it actually updated the cal for the Grand Cherokee when it was installed into a RAM so that kind of blows your theory where you said "fail" I have been programming ECU's with OE software since 2005 and know most of the "tricks" when it comes to installing used ecu's into different vehicles. I was able to program the Cherokee TCM and change the Cal to the RAM by leaving the RAM TCM plugged in until the start of programming and then switched harness to the Cherokee TCM, everything worked fine, the only "side effect" was that the TCM original VIN and current VIN did not match in the ECU report.
    BTW there are parts available you probably just don't know where to look.

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTR View Post
    When I installed the "wrong" VB with the wrong Cal, it would not change the cal, it actually updated the cal for the Grand Cherokee when it was installed into a RAM so that kind of blows your theory where you said "fail" I have been programming ECU's with OE software since 2005 and know most of the "tricks" when it comes to installing used ecu's into different vehicles.
    So...How does that blow my "theory"? You just proved it for me, it pulled by the VIN...in the TCM...which was for the G.C....right? You stated in your first post WiTech looks at the calibration in the TCM, not the VIN, which is incorrect. I'm not trying to be a dick at all, this forum is all about spreading valuable info and helping others. I was merely stating how it does in fact work, you are talking to an FCA employee that helped set up the flashing procedures for the 8 and 9 speeds. I can give you the names of a few guys up at Woodhouse or Baxter to talk to, I've been there as I was one the guys that figures things out when the dealer is stuck. You were stating things in theory so I don't doubt that you wouldn't know the difference between two transmissions as the company you work for rebuilds a lot of them, I was merely pointing out some facts to be sure and check on before undergoing this adventure. Having never tried to do exactly what you are doing (and don't take this the wrong way as me being a dick) we don't do, as we just get the correct parts needed, so I'm not sure what issues could result as incorrect VIN on the scan report or how to change it in the TCM, I'll have to look into that. So in closing the downside is I think really all this as far as programming is out of the realm of HP Tuners anyway, as far as reflashing and being able to swap parts around between different transmissions. Oh and I'm not the type to insult anyone's intelligence because every one has to start some where and learn, but don't insult mine. Since 2005, I'm sure you are a knowledgeable person, but I was writing calibrations about 10 years before that. If they ever do open up 8-speeds for tuning you are more than welcome to come to my shop, we can put of my 8-speed cars on my dyno and I'll get you up to speed on tuning them. That's a serious promise, I'd be more than happy.

  9. #9
    The Witech application uses both the Vin and the part number to present a flash file. If neither is present, it won't produce a file for you. CTR is correct, I have also swapped modules to get a flash to load. The old VCI pods made it easy, you could just run from one car to the other hooked up with usb.
    Level 3 Master Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge/Ram technician
    20 years experience

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
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    As a level 3 master with experience Monzsta, I'm sure like me, you remember the days of level 4, so I'm sure you remember shortly after the 8-speed was released there was a tremendous number of valve body/TCM replacements due to incorrect flashing? For this reason if you were flashing an 8-speed TCM it was up to the tech to go to tech tools and verify the correct flash using the VIN. Because using WiTech alone it would pull all the flashes by model line (RWD/AWD/V8/V6) based on....wait for it....the VIN. Now of course with WiTech 2 it was some what implemented that WiTech would "judge" based on part number to display only the usable flash, but again it needs to be verified with tech tools.

    I'm not saying you can't flash modules by tricks for module swapping and all that, a lot of things are possible what I was merely pointing out is it is by VIN which is why when CTR stated WiTech updated the flash of the GC valve body while it was in the Ram, BUT, it updated it to a GC flash file because it looked at the VIN in the TCM. Also consider when you buy a new module it comes with a generic half-encrypted file, and you have to flash it current which also finishes the encryption, how would WiTech know what the update file is with a generic factory shipped flash file? It wouldn't, but again it pulls by VIN so most of the time it displays the correct file for you.

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
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    Side note, if CTR could have written the Ram VIN into the GC valve body, WiTech would have updated the TCM with the correct calibration for the Ram. I'd be curious if he could accomplish this, it's not a proxi-alignable module and a one time deal, once written only (at this time) on an engineering level of that particular TCM can have a VIN changed. WiTech looks at the current calibration to decide if it should display "update available" on the ECU update screen based on what the VIN has pulled, it takes thousands of lines of code to be able to have WiTech figure out just that, the code it would take to figure out if the current flash had an update, if the next update was the update for that one or two steps up because in the code world an update is an update for the next in line. What if the module was a couple updates behind? You'd have to flash it to see the next update for that update. It's easy find the latest by VIN, then the current flash doesn't matter.

  12. #12
    I don't remember the GC being proxy. Just the horrid 9 speeds in the Cherokee and 200. I don't know if swapping the vin would result in anything but a dozen modules screaming "configuration error". Recently had a '14 KL with a DNA swap fresh from another dealer and the transmission was having a fit. After going back and forth with STAR because the PCM part number didn't have a dna suffix, I redownloaded the proxy and the BCM file changed during alignment. After that the car was fine. Guess the previous tec forgot that part. Also had a few guys in the shop flash WK's into WD's. Good times unwinding that mess.
    Last edited by Monzsta; 03-16-2017 at 06:43 AM.
    Level 3 Master Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge/Ram technician
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  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
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    Right, yea the 8-speed vehicles don't do proxy align, that was more a Fiat deal with proxy. There's no doubt flashing with 8/9 speeds has been an entire new process which some techs picked up on the correct way of doing it and some didn't, the ones that didn't did not have fun paying for a TCM after they didn't look up the correct one in tech tools because FCA said, ummmm nope, we are not paying for an incorrect flash!

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    Blue Bee, Sorry for my statement if you were just trying to help, but when you start your reply with FAIL I just took offense to that.
    So let's get into this a little further, in the following statement a new TCM or Valve body there is not a VIN stored in it obviously, so what your saying is that the module can not be programmed until you write the VIN in the TCM? I do not have the vehicle here anymore so I can't go back and look at it but I did not see a "TCM replaced" functional test in the WiTech like you would for a "PCM replaced" in the WCM so then it would program the TCM by VIN, BUT it would be by the VIN stored in the PCM Correct? That's what I was expecting to happen with the used wrong TCM, now whether the WiTech pulled the updated Cal from the VIN stored in the TCM or the current Cal I can not say. Would you mind calling me? I think that it would be easier than in a forum. If you are OK with that just let me know and I will PM you my contact info. I am not a Chrysler specialist, I have to deal with everything from Acura to VW and everything in-between so you obviously have more Chrysler specific training, I have been to a Chrysler training class on the 8&9 speed units in Minneapolis, but the instructor had nothing for the questions I had about programming.

    "Also consider when you buy a new module it comes with a generic half-encrypted file, and you have to flash it current which also finishes the encryption, how would WiTech know what the update file is with a generic factory shipped flash file? It wouldn't, but again it pulls by VIN so most of the time it displays the correct file for you."

  15. #15
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
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    No problem, like I said it was meant to be more funny, that's just my personality but that's hard to convey on a forum. There a lot of variables depending on model and year but yes the VIN say on a specific model is stored in all modules but referneced and programmed from basically three modules which normally are the dominant bus modules as an example say PCM, WCM and TIPM (keep in mind that may not be correct if the vehicle has an RFH). "Always flash first" is the Dodge motto, so with a new TCM, normally...once you do that first flash to get rid of the generic "shipped with" flash and WiTech has determined based on the VIN from those three modules which to use, it will set/program the VIN into TCM during that first flash. Does that make sense? To answer your next question from there once the TCM has a valid VIN WiTech will also reference that to decide the flash to display down the road if it needs an update. It basically does a bunch of checks and balances to know what info needs to be set. Then there is situations where you have multiple module failures and those main modules that have VIN and mileage info are down and it's a nightmare. It's happened, the 'ol car got struck by lightning does that trick! Because at that point you don't have those modules WiTech gathers the appropriate info from so it has no idea what to flash and what the correct flash is because all it sees are generic factory shipped flashes. But yea PM me your info and I'll help where I can!