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Thread: Cold Start Emiss. Red.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Which timing table did you change?
    The emissions retard, 44600. I went and looked, mine is expressed as a retard, so a 0 is no change, positives are a reduction in timing lead. I have mine set at 0 so no change when this timing control is engaged.

  2. #22
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's how mine is worded too.

    But I couldn't rectify why it would trend to maximum values as ECT hit full temp, and ERT hit 150+ seconds.

  3. #23
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    One thing to note, at times, maybe only when under torque control, is that when base (borderline) timing has a setting lower than other settings like idle timing, it will take over and use base settings. You can raise base, and it will then use idle settings.

    If yours is switching back & forth between base & emissions red. I would set emissions red to 0 and let it ride. This means that it's using base, then applying the emissions red. on top of the base. This is what I see on mine anyway. Maybe we can do away with emissions red. somehow, I'll look

    Upon further looking, and thinking, anything to do with emissions in HPT can't be done away with, maybe this is one of those things. Thankfully, we can set to 0.
    Last edited by MRRPMBRP; 06-26-2019 at 08:44 AM.

  4. #24
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    One thing to note, at times, maybe only when under torque control, is that when base (borderline) timing has a setting lower than other settings like idle timing, it will take over and use base settings. You can raise base, and it will then use idle settings.

    If yours is switching back & forth between base & emissions red. I would set emissions red to 0 and let it ride. This means that it's using base, then applying the emissions red. on top of the base. This is what I see on mine anyway. Maybe we can do away with emissions red. somehow, I'll look

    Upon further looking, and thinking, anything to do with emissions in HPT can't be done away with, maybe this is one of those things. Thankfully, we can set to 0.


    At idle speed and load, my base and borderline tables are 30* and 33*


    My 44600 Emissions Retard table is already zeroed out, so that isn't the cause. Worth mentioning: my stock GT tune has them zeroed too.


    I also looked at the: [ECM] 44566 - Spark Cold Start Max Retard Drive vs. ECT vs. ERT: This table provides a maximum spark limit for catalytic converter warmup during cold starts in relation to ECT and Engine Run Time (ERT) table.

    The name and description don't really match. but it sounded more like a "max spark", not "max retard". I tried zeroing these two cells for a test, and it had a huge impact on idle spark... just not in the direction I want:

    cold start table2.jpg


    Here is the result during idle:

    cold-start--retard-result.jpg
    Last edited by CCS86; 06-26-2019 at 09:26 AM.

  5. #25
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    Looks like you can enter negative values, try that, see what happens. I have never messed with that on mine.

  6. #26
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRRPMBRP View Post
    Looks like you can enter negative values, try that, see what happens. I have never messed with that on mine.


    Reducing those values reduced my spark advance at idle. I definitely don't want to reduce it further.

  7. #27
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    Ok, what did positives do?
    Try large positives.

    Or, maybe the coding is wrong, and the ecu reads positives as negatives & vice versa.

  8. #28
    Advanced Tuner Witt's Avatar
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    It's always worked on my car as a max advance vs ECT vs runtime. If you have a lower tstat or its inferring ECT at a lower value than it should, max the appropriate values. afaik its just used to retard spark for cat and component warmup.

  9. #29
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witt View Post
    It's always worked on my car as a max advance vs ECT vs runtime. If you have a lower tstat or its inferring ECT at a lower value than it should, max the appropriate values. afaik its just used to retard spark for cat and component warmup.


    That what it seems like to me...

    But it shows something interesting:

    I set those values to 0, so that table should have capped maximum advance to 0*... yet something else is acting as an adder to get final advance to -12* (retarded). It would have to be an arbitrary adder, not looking at where the calculated advance already was.

    It sure seems like that same adder is reducing my idle advance all the time. Because the settings I have defined should put idle spark in the low 20's, yet I'm always at 7* - 10*.

  10. #30
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    Was it ever figure out exactly how the CSER timing is controlled?

  11. #31
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    Hello,

    I ran into the same issue with a 2012 Mustang GT M6 with flex fuel enabled. As soon as it went above 60% Ethanol, Cold Start Emissions reduction hammered timing to 0 Degrees.

    Reading through this thread, I saw no conclusion, So I wanted to share my resolution that I have found with this particular car. This is what worked for me and what I have found:

    Attached is my layout for reviewing purposes: Coyote Layout.Layout.xml

    Tables 44574 and 44575 has a direct effect on flex fuel spark. What I found out is that it acts like a spark limit, like pre-ignition and cylinder pressure limit. For example, when the values on those tables are entered 0, Borderline and MBT will try to command spark, but 44574 and 44575 will limit the spark at 0 and then spark source: Cold Start Emission Reduction will present itself when blending to E85. You can see this in the log here.

    CSER issue flex fuel.hpl

    Screenshot (19).png





    Now here's what worked for me:

    I tried it for the hell of it because the tables 44574 and 44575 stated in the description: This table provides a maximum spark limit for catalytic converter warmup during cold starts in relation to ECT and Engine Run Time (ERT) For Alcohol applications.

    I went into both tables and entered 60

    Screenshot (18).png


    Wrote the calibration and tested.

    As shown in the log, it fixed the issue and spark source returned to normal.

    CSER fixed flex fuel.hpl


    I hope this helps for those running into this issue for 11-14 Coyotes.
    Last edited by Robert00MustangTurbo; 07-22-2021 at 08:50 PM.

  12. #32
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Good find.

    I just checked and my 2012 FPDX strategy doesn't have those tables mapped yet.

  13. #33
    Tuner Robert00MustangTurbo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCS86 View Post
    Good find.

    I just checked and my 2012 FPDX strategy doesn't have those tables mapped yet.


    I have had similar issues with some 2012 Strategies where tables were flat out missing, even the RPM patch would be missing with the latest beta available. I just write entire a whole different strategy from another 2012 Mustang with the same transmission since I was in a time crunch and wouldn't get a solution from support within the time crunch.

    This is what has work for me so far, for example:

    2012 Mustang M6 Strategy FPDY5AA: Missing RPM Patch and hits hard RPM Limit at 7500RPMS no matter what I do.


    Screenshot (22).png




    So what I did is performed a Write Entire with a known good strategy that works with the first 3 Letters matching (It's an assumption since it worked)

    I flashed on 2012 Mustang GT M6 Strategy FPDN053 with the RPM Patch applied and it worked like a charm.

    Screenshot (23).png



    You can look at the difference between the two Strategies with the attached calibrations.

    Shane 2012 Mustang GT file pulled.hpt
    Shane 2012 Mustang GT file base 2.hpt


    I hope this helps.

  14. #34
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    FYI 44574 and 44575 don't exist in the Gen3 definition.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    FYI 44574 and 44575 don't exist in the Gen3 definition.
    From what I've seen so far, the Tri-Core Series PCMs (2015-Current Coyotes) flex fuel does not have tables 44574 and 44575 due to a completely different operating system, compared to the Copperhead PCMs (2011-2014 Coyotes) that do have the tables IF it has been added to the strategy.

    I haven't had any issues with flex fuel in regards to CSER Hammering timing on Tri-Core Series PCMs as they're pretty straight forward on the flex fuel calibrations. I've only experienced the CSER Spark Source issue on Copperhead PCMs, especially the 11-12 Coyotes, and it was definitely annoying trying to figure that one out.
    Last edited by Robert00MustangTurbo; 07-30-2021 at 01:15 AM.

  16. #36
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    Support added those two tables to FPDX in the last beta, at my request.

  17. #37
    Senior Tuner CCS86's Avatar
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    FYI:

    After testing the new tables, I found that:

    [ECM] 44574 is directly linked to [ECM] 11536
    [ECM] 44575 is directly linked to [ECM] 11540

    Support confirmed, they are the same tables.

  18. #38
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    11536 and 11540 are the flex fuel tables. I was hoping to find better control over the gasoline CSER timing.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by engineermike View Post
    11536 and 11540 are the flex fuel tables. I was hoping to find better control over the gasoline CSER timing.

    [ECM] 44574 and [ECM] 44575 are listed as for "alcohol applications"

    [ECM] 11536 and [ECM] 11540 are listed as for "flex fuel vehicles"

    I'm pretty sure that those are just different descriptions for the same thing. I emailed support to confirm, and to ask for the gasoline tables.

  20. #40
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    Ccs86 how are you coming by this information? Sounds like something I’d be interested in doing….