Going rich in 4th gear

[MrTurbo]

Hoping for some helful advice here, working on this 300C for a buddy, car has Paxton SC pushing 6-7lbs, srt4 57# injectors, longtubes... pretty basic right?

Yeah I figured it would be, but having never tuned dodge before and still consider myself a novice at GM; its a lot more of a pain than I expected.

I have spent a huge amount of time on the dodge section here going over the available info, and it has helped a bunch. The tune is nothing near what I would consider good in general, but its getting there (i think?).

Biggest problem I have now is that I cant seem to get the fueling to be anywhere near what I want in all the gears, I'll get it close in 2/3 and its off in 1st, and so on. right now its about the best ive gotten it, but it goes fat as hell in 4th.

the next problem I have is with very abrupt opening of throttle causes it to stumble and basically just feels like the motor turns off, then as soon as i let off the throttle it its comes right back. To try and clarify that, it feels as though it goes into some sort of tq reduction or limbo, I suspected the throttle blade was just closing, but logging TPS volts seems to tell me otherwise...? This can be seen when I stab it at time frame 2:10:704

next timing is not doing what im attempting to command at wot, always a cpl degrees lower, and seems to pull out more and more through out a pull, nothing major but still a few degrees.

I'm sure theres lots wrong to point out, so please feel free. Thanks]]NB 1.7.hpt

nb 1.7.hpl

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

briefly looking at your fuel, your not scaling the VE tables right. as load will vary with gear

[doc350]

I havent looked at your tune yet, but what MAP sensor are you running? You need at least a 2bar MAP so you can read into boost and scale the VE tables to read above 1.0 Pressure Ratio.

Also, if this is an old GS Motorsports Paxton kit, I would look into re-doing the intercooler, as it never worked well to begin with. Also, check to make sure the IAT sensor is in the intake tube and not out in fresh air somewhere.

[MrTurbo]

I've looked and looked but not seeing any definitive information on how to properly rescale the ve tables, being that there is only 3 break points (see picture) to scale Im even more confused, is there a way to add points or? THank you

2016-07-21.png

[MrTurbo]

I havent looked at your tune yet, but what MAP sensor are you running? You need at least a 2bar MAP so you can read into boost and scale the VE tables to read above 1.0 Pressure Ratio.

Also, if this is an old GS Motorsports Paxton kit, I would look into re-doing the intercooler, as it never worked well to begin with. Also, check to make sure the IAT sensor is in the intake tube and not out in fresh air somewhere.

It is a 1 bar map, he thought he bought a 2 bar but got jipped on craigslist. being that it was reading the correct PR (above 1.00 up to 1.40) I was hoping that I could get away with it on such low boost. I also dont understand how changing the map sensor would give me more options for scaling in HPT. Does it change the tables/breakpoints when you change the map settings?

It is the GS kit, and that was the very first thing I told him when he brought it over, going to have a custom AA setup made soon :-) thanks again

[MrTurbo]

Ok so I put in a 2bar map sensor (05033224ab)... Changed the map settings in the tune, it reads properly key on at 82kpa (in colorado).

Seemed to run fine at first until I saw the fuel trims going crazy, and it doesnt respond when given full throttle, just goes super fat. Seems like more than just needing to redo the ve tables...? I'm sure its something stupid im missing, but not for lack of effort...


NB 1.7 2bar map.hpl

NB 1.7 2bar map.hpt

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

did you adjust everything related to airflow

[06300CSRT8]

Max out your ENGINE>FUEL>GENERAL>Target Cat Temp and your Target Exh Temp.

Zero out ENGINE>FUEL>GENERAL>WOT Delay>TP Delta Max

To me it looks like your injector data is pretty far off, esp in lower rpms. Where did your data come from?

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

^ inj data important and you need to log inj pw to find your rich spot

[MrTurbo]

Max out your ENGINE>FUEL>GENERAL>Target Cat Temp and your Target Exh Temp.

Zero out ENGINE>FUEL>GENERAL>WOT Delay>TP Delta Max

To me it looks like your injector data is pretty far off, esp in lower rpms. Where did your data come from?

Thank you for reply; I added to the WOT delay as it would go super fat at initial wot, probably due to injector data being far off?

I got the injector data from a friend who runs the injectors, I suspected that was an issue but found soo many conflicting threads on how to come up injector data for dodge I was hesitant to pick one method and try it... Do you have good data for the stage 1 srt4 injectors?

[MrTurbo]

^ inj data important and you need to log inj pw to find your rich spot

Thank you for reply, going to try to get proper data, and will log PW.

[MrTurbo]

So any ideas why everything went to shit when I put the 2 bar map on? Is it all possibly related to the injector data being off?

I dont have the car, want to have a solid plan in place before I have him leave it with me again, hoping that proper injector data and the above suggestions will get it working properly on the 2 bar, which tables do I need to rescale for 2 bar?

Any thoughts on the issue that feels like the throttle blade is closing at WOT? It is a bbk 90mm.

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

start fresh

install your map (change the settings)

your injector data (what size injector)

scale all your fueling and timing maps

adjust idle airflow if needed.

[Mep_q8]

Your COT enrichment is still enabled, and with the amount of heat your exhaust is producing under that much load it will definitely add fuel to save the "Cat Converters" which I'm thinking you do not have on the car.

I would definitely start over on your tune like sultan said and compare the MAP and Airflow tables to a boosted car file here on the forums. I know it's a lot of work, but perfection does take time!

[MrTurbo]

start fresh

install your map (change the settings)

your injector data (what size injector)

scale all your fueling and timing maps

adjust idle airflow if needed.

Thanks for your continued help; my thoughts too on starting fresh

did I have the proper map settings in the second fie I posted?

The injector data I'm having problems with, I see conflicted information on how to accomplish this, this is the method I tried:

To easy calibrate injectors, log fuel trims, injector pullse width and reqd charge cyl 1.
I do that with diablo, but many dodge logging in hpt allow this to.

As base, choose values for pulse that you like, or you can leave what they are.
if you leave what they are, easy will be to multiply Fuel Mass by percent, so if stock are 34,5 and new are 60lb, multiply by 1.73.
If you don't leave them, do calculations.
Take how much flow your injector have and convert it to g/ms, most calculators do to g/s, so divide it by 1000.

So for 60lb injectors it will be 0.007559872833333
for 34,5lb injectors it will be 0.0043469

Multiply this by injector pulse values and you have flow.
This will be linear base calibration.
You can also multiply stock values by percent (fuel mass)
Fill values for both tables.

For final tweak, use log.
Import file to excel, divide injector pulse by 1000, divide reqd fuel charge by 1000 sort it by pulse or fuel mass and copy values to you table that are already corrected by PCM.

I dialed mine in 30 minutes with this method.

Considering stock injectors were 30#, the srt4 base injectors are 57#, this is a 90% increase; I adjusted the INJPW v Fuel mass by 1.9 and adjusted the fuelmass v injpw to be the inverse of these numbers. Car would not run. Was I on the right track and just needed to tweak the numbers or was I way off?

2016-07-29 (2).png Stock

2016-07-29 (3).png 90% increase

Secondly what do I log to do "final tweaks"

Your COT enrichment is still enabled, and with the amount of heat your exhaust is producing under that much load it will definitely add fuel to save the "Cat Converters" which I'm thinking you do not have on the car.

I would definitely start over on your tune like sultan said and compare the MAP and Airflow tables to a boosted car file here on the forums. I know it's a lot of work, but perfection does take time!

Thank you for the reply trailblazin;

Any sample files that are definitely done correctly that can be suggested for me to study for the injector changes, and airflow changes and to show proper scaling of the fueling and timing tables? Im not looking for anyone to do it for me orto copy and paste anything, just looking for examples of it done properly so I can know digest the methods and know that I'm not chasing my tail going off of improper methods.

Thanks to all for your help!

[Russ K]

Your injector tables are not correct. Return the InjPW vs. Fuel Mass & Fuel Mass vs. InjPW tables to stock. Then multiply the Fuel Mass vs. InjPW table by 1.9, then copy this table. Next, click on the InjPW vs. Fuel Mass table axis & paste.

Look at the attached pic.

Russ Kemp

[MrTurbo]

Your injector tables are not correct. Return the InjPW vs. Fuel Mass & Fuel Mass vs. InjPW tables to stock. Then multiply the Fuel Mass vs. InjPW table by 1.9, then copy this table. Next, click on the InjPW vs. Fuel Mass table axis & paste.

Look at the attached pic.

Russ Kemp

THank you very much, figured it was something stupid on my end!

[MrTurbo]

Appreciate everyones help and time... but really about ready to throw in the towel on this thing. I got it back, had prepared a file from stock to try out, triple checked the map settings, the injector settings, all are inline with what I have seen, read on the forum or been instructed on in this post. I load the tune attached it runs for about 1 second and dies. Played with the startup injector settings, the startup airflow, and the ve table in that area. nothing seems to have any effect.... car runs fine until I put the 2 bar map on it and change the injector settings.

Can anybody possibly provide a file that is a good reference for boosted airflow settings, and the scaling that I should be doing to various areas?

One thing I noticed is that the pressure ratio axis scaling only has 3 breakpoints, as shown in picture. all the ones I am seeing in other files have several... Anyone know whats up with this? is there a way to add more that I'm not seeing, or should it add them when I change the map or??? 2016-08-03.png

I am happy to compensate someone for direct help with this to get it done quickly and learn what I am doing wrong, just pm me. Otherwise, I greatly appreciate the continued help. I'm trying1.0.hpl1.0.hpt

[B00STJUNKY]

Appreciate everyones help and time... but really about ready to throw in the towel on this thing. I got it back, had prepared a file from stock to try out, triple checked the map settings, the injector settings, all are inline with what I have seen, read on the forum or been instructed on in this post. I load the tune attached it runs for about 1 second and dies. Played with the startup injector settings, the startup airflow, and the ve table in that area. nothing seems to have any effect.... car runs fine until I put the 2 bar map on it and change the injector settings.

Can anybody possibly provide a file that is a good reference for boosted airflow settings, and the scaling that I should be doing to various areas?

One thing I noticed is that the pressure ratio axis scaling only has 3 breakpoints, as shown in picture. all the ones I am seeing in other files have several... Anyone know whats up with this? is there a way to add more that I'm not seeing, or should it add them when I change the map or??? 2016-08-03.png

I am happy to compensate someone for direct help with this to get it done quickly and learn what I am doing wrong, just pm me. Otherwise, I greatly appreciate the continued help. I'm trying1.0.hpl1.0.hpt

Please don't take any of this the wrong way. But your VE table is jacked. Your VE shouldn't be so low, and differ so much from a PR of 1.0 to 1.4. Those values should end up being fairly close to each other from one load cell to another, until you start running into some serious choke flow.

Also, even though there are only 3 breakpoints that you can define for Pressure Ratio, that doesn't mean that you have to have such fine resolution of the low PR range, and such poor resolution in the high PR range. Granted, you will likely benefit from better resolution in the low PR ranges than having high resolution in the high PR range, but it does not need to be so heavily biased.

Considering the extremely low VE values you're using in Closed Loop regions of the VE map, which I assume you did to get your closed loop fuel trims in check, I would highly suspect that your injector scaling must be pretty far off.

Here is a quick example of what I would expect a properly tuned VE table to look more like (this was just quickly thrown together with no real tuning or data behind it - just an example of shape of the map, and the range of values I'd expect to see):

VE MAP shape.png
VE MAP value range and scaling.png

I suspect that the reason you're going rich in 4th gear is that you're probably hitting a higher Pressure Ratio in that gear (more load on the vehicle will result in more Pressure Ratio at a given RPM range), and are breaking into the PR range of your VE map that is defined as closer to 80% rather than the 40'ish% that the rest of your map is defined as.

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

also your file disabled VE bank 2