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Thread: Driver Demand Limit Source & Throttle Angle Source

  1. #1
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Driver Demand Limit Source & Throttle Angle Source

    UPDATE 28 JUL 2016:
    This is resolved. I had to set WOT Start/Stop to stock 1023/1023 so the ECU looks to driver demand for figuring out boost. I modified the last row of driver demand, but I'm still not positive this has a direct correlation with increased scheduled torque as a source for boost calculations. Torque Rate Limit under Trans -> Torque Mgmt should be disabled and the Upper Limit all set to a high value (like 10,000). This was the torque limiter that kept eluding me after I had increased all of the other ones I found.

    Original post:
    With the latest 13+ SHO updates, I'm able to increase the desired torque but not the actual boost. I found out inadvertently that if I go into SPORT mode, the ECU uses all the stock settings so I'll never try to command more than 350 ft-lb of torque. Years of driving the stock SHO made it a force of habit to shift into SPORT to get the right throttle response. If I keep it in DRIVE, I'll have terrible throttle response but it will command the correct torque.

    That said, I did several WOT runs today and ran into a situation that I think many have encountered before.

    Torque Source: Engine Indicated Torque Limit
    Driver Demand Limit Source: starts off No limit Active, then goes to Combustion Stability Limit, and finally Insufficient Fuel Flow.
    Throttle Angle Source is always: TQ Red. < Driver Demand

    When I first start WOT, the boost levels climb to what I expected but quickly dip down once the limit sources kick in.

    My fuel pressure during the entire run never dipped below 2000 psi. What do the DD Limit Source messages really mean?

    For Combustion Stability Limit, there's only 3 settings I see: Max MAP (maxed at 65 inHg), Max Brake Torque, and Max Brake Torque w/ Spark Limit and they're maxed.

    Looking at my TIP values: TIP Desired was 23 psi and TIP Actual was 24.2 psi where the boost pressure stabilized.
    Turbo Massflow was 38.42 lb/min, whereas Desired Massflow was about 50 lb/min (commensurate with the demanded torque).

    Where settings/sections do I need to examine to correct this?

    FWIW, today was hot at 95F ambient. My Trans fluid temp is 207F (non-PP so no aux aux cooler), and Air Charge Temp peaked at 150F, with IAT at 104F.
    Last edited by metroplex; 07-29-2016 at 03:43 AM.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner LastPlace's Avatar
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    Post your file and log

  3. #3
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I would if I could strip the VIN #s.

  4. #4
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    I'm having the same problem on 2.3 Ecoboost mustang. There's no where else about comb stab limit other than those 3 you listed, I'm not sure about the 3.5 but on the Ecoboost mustang it closes the throttle angle down to about 45% to keep the pcm happy. So more room for power to be made.

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    It's the same way for the 3.5, but the throttle is being closed due to some kind of limiter.

  6. #6
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LastPlace View Post
    Post your file and log
    There's a few 13+ SHO files in the repository. Looking at the 2.3, 2.7, and 3.5 EcoBoost files - they all seem to have the same core tables. If you've figured out how to increase boost, please do share on what exactly you changed or at least the pertinent tables and where to start.

    I've heard: modify driver demand and remove limiters or modify the torque tables/inverse torque tables and remove limiters. I've tried both and haven't been able to figure out why the ECU follows another set of torque values/TIP values even when I forced TIP pressure - the ECU obviously sees that I desired higher TIP and torque but continues to use the stock settings throughout the RPM range.

  7. #7
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I think I figured it out, and I say I think because I didn't have my datalogging gear.

    I went back to the stock WOT start/stop settings (1023 / 1023) so that it'll never ignore the driver demand table even at WOT. Then I modified the last 2 rows of the driver demand (increased the values). I did raise a lot of the torque limiters elsewhere but that by itself never worked nor did changing the driver demand table alone. I had tried 1023/1023 for the WOT settings, but that was before Eric unlocked the bulk of the tables for the SHOs (Clip Inverse Torque, Exhaust Flange Temp Inverse, WOT Torque, etc).

    In DRIVE, I went WOT several times and let off the throttle once it built up enough boost. Each time, I could hear the sharp pitched sound of the BOV's (I have the stock BOV's attached to the stock plumbing, so they're not venting to atmosphere, and I'm running the stock paper filter). I manually shifted to 2nd gear and could reproduce it every time.

    As I mentioned before, if I shift into SPORT mode, I cannot replicate this and it feels completely stock. The scheduled torque and desired torque values are factory stock when in SPORT mode. It all changes when I go back to DRIVE. I think what is happening is that there's more than 1 driver demand table, SPORT mode uses something else that isn't available in HPTuners currently. Eric mentioned that none of the SHOs have access to the pedal mapping either that the Mustangs have, but I'm positive that SPORT mode on the SHO switches at least 1 table to improve throttle response, change the shift scheduling, and apparently driver demand.

    I'll have to see what's going on when I hook up the datalogger, but I've never heard the BOV's this loud before other than at the race track where a 12 second SHO was racing.
    Last edited by metroplex; 07-24-2016 at 06:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I logged some data. I was right, I'm able to build more boost but it is at the TIP sensor. The throttle plate is still closed at WOT (commanding 24* out of 82* max). Wastegate Duty Cycle is above 80%. MAP sensor shows stock levels of boost though, which seems to make sense since my Turbo Mass Flow is still stock at 38-40 lb/min.

    The only settings related to Torque Reduction are in Transmission -> Torque Management

    Transmission Torque.jpg

    Do I want to set all of these to disabled?
    Last edited by metroplex; 07-25-2016 at 04:47 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Didn't you say it took you 2 years to tune it using SCT?

    What tq limiters did you raise? Anything in the ramp rates / limits that don't have descriptions in HPTuners?
    Last edited by metroplex; 07-26-2016 at 03:15 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Figured it out.

    With the help of another member, I found out that the one limiter that eluded me was Torque Rate Limit. That needs to be disabled and the Upper Limit has to be raised across all rows (to say, 10,000 ft-lb). This gets rid of the TQ Red. < Driver Demand messages during a non-shifting acceleration event.

    I found out that Driver Demand doesn't really do anything. I can request 400-450 ft-lb but I'll see that Scheduled Torque is 660+ ft-lb which is based on another table entirely. I kept it at 449 ft-lb, but I used the stock DD table at one point and saw the custom boost levels.

    You can set WOT Start/Stop to values like 460/545 or whichever you choose, and while it forces the throttle open during a WOT run, the WGDC will fluctuate/drop causing the boost to start at a high value (say 17 psi) and drops down towards 12 psi at redline.

    If you keep WOT Start/Stop stock at 1023, this causes the ECU to do all the dirty work. I was able to hold at least 17 psi at the MAP right after a WOT upshift all the way to redline. The WGDC is automatically adjusted and was about 70%-80%! For inferred massflow, I'm seeing about 49 lb/min versus the stock 39 lb/min.

    Spark retard looks the same as stock. I'm running a dirty paper air filter in the stock airbox and pump 87 octane fuel from the local grocery store. I recommend 93 octane.

    Also, don't use Sport mode - it switches to a different set of tables/settings so you'll never see the custom boost levels, so just shift back to drive or keep it in drive.

    What I learned is that HPTuners is totally feasible for modifying EcoBoost, as long as all of the tables/parameters are unlocked.
    Last edited by metroplex; 07-28-2016 at 04:18 AM.

  11. #11
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Figured it out.

    With the help of another member, I found out that the one limiter that eluded me was Torque Rate Limit. That needs to be disabled and the Upper Limit has to be raised across all rows (to say, 10,000 ft-lb). This gets rid of the TQ Red. < Driver Demand messages during a non-shifting acceleration event.

    I found out that Driver Demand doesn't really do anything. I can request 400-450 ft-lb but I'll see that Scheduled Torque is 660+ ft-lb which is based on another table entirely. I kept it at 449 ft-lb, but I used the stock DD table at one point and saw the custom boost levels.

    You can set WOT Start/Stop to values like 460/545 or whichever you choose, and while it forces the throttle open during a WOT run, the WGDC will fluctuate/drop causing the boost to start at a high value (say 17 psi) and drops down towards 12 psi at redline.

    If you keep WOT Start/Stop stock at 1023, this causes the ECU to do all the dirty work. I was able to hold at least 17 psi at the MAP right after a WOT upshift all the way to redline. The WGDC is automatically adjusted and was about 70%-80%! For inferred massflow, I'm seeing about 49 lb/min versus the stock 39 lb/min.

    Spark retard looks the same as stock. I'm running a dirty paper air filter in the stock airbox and pump 87 octane fuel from the local grocery store. I recommend 93 octane.

    Also, don't use Sport mode - it switches to a different set of tables/settings so you'll never see the custom boost levels, so just shift back to drive or keep it in drive.

    What I learned is that HPTuners is totally feasible for modifying EcoBoost, as long as all of the tables/parameters are unlocked.
    Glad you got it working. I will look through the logic and see what is happening with sport mode.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  12. #12
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    OK, on these it appears that when Sport mode is active, it uses the Driver Demand table for Terrain Mode.

    I'll get it added shortly.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Does Sport mode use the same scheduled torque / torque limiters as regular Drive? The reason I ask is because it seemed like the Driver Demand table didn't have any direct correlation with the scheduled torque. I can request 349-449 ft-lb in Driver Demand, but the actual scheduled torque could be 500+ ft-lb based on the torque tables. Or does Sport mode have a different set of WOT start/stop values?

  14. #14
    Advanced Tuner Auto-Hentzschel's Avatar
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    hopefully, we get the full Ecoboost Maps and scalers unlocked. I check every day for a new update!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Does Sport mode use the same scheduled torque / torque limiters as regular Drive? The reason I ask is because it seemed like the Driver Demand table didn't have any direct correlation with the scheduled torque. I can request 349-449 ft-lb in Driver Demand, but the actual scheduled torque could be 500+ ft-lb based on the torque tables. Or does Sport mode have a different set of WOT start/stop values?
    Actual Scheduled Torque can be adjusted from Driver Demand because of additions for accessories and the like. It does use the same ones, it seems like the only difference was Sport mode uses a different driver demand table.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Driver Demand Limit Source: starts off No limit Active, then goes to Combustion Stability Limit, and finally Insufficient Fuel Flow.
    Throttle Angle Source is always: TQ Red. < Driver Demand
    Every-time I get a Insufficient Fuel Flow I found out it was going into cat protection mode and commanding a .068 lambda.

  17. #17
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Someone that used SCT said there were multiple Driver Demand tables. I had mentioned this to HPTuners a few weeks ago, but I couldn't confirm anything until recently.

    The pedal mapping tables and different drive modes are also not found on the SHO files in HPTuners, but are present in 2015-up F-150 and Mustang. I'm not sure if SCT has those tables for all SHO's either.

  18. #18
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Terrain/Sport mode driver demand table has been added for the SHO. The other platforms that use this table will get it as I get around to updating them.

    Only the 2015+ vehicles have the functions for changing pedal sensitivity
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  19. #19
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Eric,
    Thanks. It is working like a charm. I've increased the boost, but now I'm trying to dial in the max boost to prevent excessive knock retard. I'm still learning about how some of the tables work but I think I figured out an easy way to do everything.

  20. #20
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Excellent! Keep us updated with your progress.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC