How are these shops getting over 1K hp Out of the stock LT4 fuel Systems???

[LSxpwrdZ]

Ha! The long and the short of this is that many shouldn't be playing with a laptop with software to modify any controller without a good understanding of how the internal combustion engine works. Then understand physics and then a bit of chemistry. I'm sure every GM engineer has those under his belt and for good reason.....ITS ALL NEEDED!

Now most of us here don't carry those credentials but there is plenty of low hanging fruit to get a grip on it relative to understanding. I'm sure most guys on this site never got there hands on a carb but even back then the same stuff applied.. There are so many factors that effect how we fuel and spark a combustion chamber and after enough years it starts to make sense because it is physics.

Fueling is a bit more literal to understand.....until now....if you can properly calibrate a controller to where the actual airflow is exactly what the controller acknowledges your half way through the battle. This is in more then one way as its also tied to the "torque" value which obviously is heavily intertwined in the E92. The other half of the fueling battle is the anticipated fuel delivery. This would be tied to the injectors as well as high pressure pump delivery. In the case of DI (for now.....wait until end of September ) those values are a constant. NOTE: Fuel delivery is also effected by pressure.

I use this example all the time but it will help make sense.....

We've all made lemonade...or ice tea.... if you look at the water as the air and the sugar as the fuel you can understand that we are about to put a ratio together. If its 2 quarts of water to one scoop of sugar we should end up with the perfect tasting drink. We will call that stoich. If I want to make more we will double everything in proportion but always end of at the same ratio...now.........what if we pour the sugar in slow and it all sinks to the bottom.....we still have the correct ratio but we didn't mix it.....now the dart board is swing on the wall with a chain....

This is where the 5 gas comes into play...now we can really figure out whats not being burned... so when you read a lambda of .73 its not because the ratio is off but its not mixing....not burning and then buzzing by your lambda sensor making you think its rich.....so you go and finger blast the laptop until you lean it up. Now you have screwed up the proper air model and also messed up the torque model.....

We could go all night with this but I don't think I have enough battery left on my laptop. For all you guys with 2 post looking for the golden file......get off the HPT site and go start reading on how engines work! These controllers are very complicated and trust me even the guys that are in it deep here still scratch there ass's. I wore a hole in mine many a night!

I am working with someone else in the industry regarding some training stuff and hope we can put something together in a few months...

Couldn't have said that any better.

Look forward to seeing some of Banish's material once it's released. If he is who you are talking about with the training stuff I look forward to it. If not I still look forward to it. I believe that many great minds put together can do big things. I feel many people/tuners/calibrators that are in the forefront of the industry are still also in the dark on the new DI combos but have too much pride to admit it. While I have a lot of pride in my work, I'm still not narrow minded enough to not listen and learn and admit when I want to learn more and have question marks in my mind where I don't want question marks.

[Asylumwarp]

I'll admit I'm a bit in the dark on the new e92 ecm.. But im really trying to learn it quickly. I think that people who don't even understand basic computer skills that are tuning just totally crazy. How can you even learn this software if you don't understand the scanner? The scanner is our most precious tool and very few know how to make it work properly. Heck, in my town alone, every tuner is considered a joke around here. That's why I bought this software years ago. I myself came from the old Lt1 93-97 generation of tuning !! Moving over to the 411 was a straight swap. But going from that to a e92 torque logic setup is mind boggling sometimes. I sat at my scanner for 5 hours last night also scratching my rear end trying to figure this out. While I don't look for a simple once and done tune because frankly I've never had someone else's tune ever work for me. I always take the stock file and start modifying depending on mods to try and get close enough to go start tuning. Every repository tune I've tried for certain cars which shared similar modifications, still didn't work. But there are a lot of us (me included) who left the forums years ago with all the knowledge we could handle, only to come across the e92 and realize we need to start over. So that's what I did. Got scanner 3.2 and a gen 5 car, and started over! So I'm sorry if I post a simple question here and there.. Were all here to try and share our thoughts and info. Atleast, I try too.

[Redline MS]

I'll admit I'm a bit in the dark on the new e92 ecm.. But im really trying to learn it quickly. I think that people who don't even understand basic computer skills that are tuning just totally crazy. How can you even learn this software if you don't understand the scanner? The scanner is our most precious tool and very few know how to make it work properly. Heck, in my town alone, every tuner is considered a joke around here. That's why I bought this software years ago. I myself came from the old Lt1 93-97 generation of tuning !! Moving over to the 411 was a straight swap. But going from that to a e92 torque logic setup is mind boggling sometimes. I sat at my scanner for 5 hours last night also scratching my rear end trying to figure this out. While I don't look for a simple once and done tune because frankly I've never had someone else's tune ever work for me. I always take the stock file and start modifying depending on mods to try and get close enough to go start tuning. Every repository tune I've tried for certain cars which shared similar modifications, still didn't work. But there are a lot of us (me included) who left the forums years ago with all the knowledge we could handle, only to come across the e92 and realize we need to start over. So that's what I did. Got scanner 3.2 and a gen 5 car, and started over! So I'm sorry if I post a simple question here and there.. Were all here to try and share our thoughts and info. Atleast, I try too.

you shouldn't have to start over if you started with the basics I outlined. Technology is usually a building block from the last version! The 4 cycle engine really hasn't changed in 100 years. None of this has to do with being computer smart (although you do need to know how to use one). LS1 was a big curve especially because of ETC logic. But in that controller was the same architecture that was there when aftermarket stuff from Accel came out with DOS based DFI. When E38/E67 arrived it was the next layer from the LS1...so if you didn't pay attention it became harder to understand. Many people believed they could walk on water when the E38/67 stuff came out as that controller was fast and smarter and could absorb more fudge... now the E92 arrives....ANOTHER LAYER!.... and there is no room for fudge as they are extracting more out of the same principle as the good ole LS1. Torque based control systems are not as new as you think as it was still happening in E38/67 but nobody paid attention...

The long and the short is go back to the basics and fix what you messed up from doing mechanical modifications. GM started with an intake design, a camshaft profile, a combustion chamber and solved for it to make the vehicle work properly. We may not have all the tools that they have, of course, but do what you can that you do have access too to get as close as you can. But you can't even begin to do this if you truly have no idea how it works..

The scanner is a very good tool to learn cause and effect but its just a bunch of numbers that still need to lead to the operation of hard parts.

[Redline MS]

Couldn't have said that any better.

Look forward to seeing some of Banish's material once it's released. If he is who you are talking about with the training stuff I look forward to it. If not I still look forward to it. I believe that many great minds put together can do big things. I feel many people/tuners/calibrators that are in the forefront of the industry are still also in the dark on the new DI combos but have too much pride to admit it. While I have a lot of pride in my work, I'm still not narrow minded enough to not listen and learn and admit when I want to learn more and have question marks in my mind where I don't want question marks.

GB and I talk often and I know he's got some cool stuff coming together. If it wasn't for forums most guys would really be in the dark. Fortunately the guys that are smart and respect each other work with each other.. I get calls and e mails often and if there is mutual respect we will share info. The guys that don't just happen to be the shops that are outcasts....those guys I don't have any room for. I spend time on this site looking for people having problems as you learn from it all

[doc350]

Howard, what 5 gas do you use at the shop? I have been in the market for one for a while now, and I think it's time to pull the trigger. I see handheld ones out there, but I would prefer something that is PC based. Any thoughts?

[ElecTech]

Howard, what 5 gas do you use at the shop? I have been in the market for one for a while now, and I think it's time to pull the trigger. I see handheld ones out there, but I would prefer something that is PC based. Any thoughts?

EASE makes a PC based one that looks pretty good.

http://www.obd2.com/exhaust/exhaust-gas.htm

[doc350]

Yeah, that looks pretty good. Kinda hard to get any real info from their website though... I sent them a message for more details.

[Redline MS]

The problem with the 5 gas is there are no budget ones that are worth a $hit. They are very temperamental pieces of equipment that need a lot of maintenance. You also need to have one that is BAR 97 speced. These are more precise. The "real" 5 gas units have vacuum pumps and there level of accuracy is very high. They are also prone to dirt and moisture which will kill a machine pretty quick. I'm not sure about the handheld units but I can't image they are even close to the accuracy of the bench units.

We use the EMS-5002 unit http://www.emsgas.com/products2.htm

The battle is knowing how to read a 5 gas to understand what is going on in the chamber

[LSxpwrdZ]

GB and I talk often and I know he's got some cool stuff coming together. If it wasn't for forums most guys would really be in the dark. Fortunately the guys that are smart and respect each other work with each other.. I get calls and e mails often and if there is mutual respect we will share info. The guys that don't just happen to be the shops that are outcasts....those guys I don't have any room for. I spend time on this site looking for people having problems as you learn from it all

Yes sir I agree.

[doc350]

Yeah, I'm well aware of the cost of admission. We've got an old OTC 5 gas as the shop that is well past it's prime. I stopped using it long ago.....

[JnJSpdShop]

Howard mentioned fuel mixtures in a DI cylinder, Nostrum Energy gave a very informative lecture at SEMA last year.

Yeah, I'm well aware of the cost of admission. We've got an old OTC 5 gas as the shop that is well past it's prime. I stopped using it long ago.....

Don't discount old equipment. Sometimes an older unit might be better than new ones

[GrannySShifting]

GB and I talk often and I know he's got some cool stuff coming together. If it wasn't for forums most guys would really be in the dark. Fortunately the guys that are smart and respect each other work with each other.. I get calls and e mails often and if there is mutual respect we will share info. The guys that don't just happen to be the shops that are outcasts....those guys I don't have any room for. I spend time on this site looking for people having problems as you learn from it all

Greg Banish? Did he buy a Mustang dyno @ 2005 at Orlando PRI show?