Ah I see. If you're using the "sensor" version of just plain EQ Ratio then it'll work regardless of what wideband you're using. I thought you were using that one, my badOriginally Posted by JBZ
Ah I see. If you're using the "sensor" version of just plain EQ Ratio then it'll work regardless of what wideband you're using. I thought you were using that one, my bad
this is what I came up with and actually I think schpenxel came up with the same exact one and it worked good for his application. (pic attached)The blue part is the amount of fuel going through the engine (per combustion) and the red part of the equation converts it to the corresponding amount of air.
CommandedAFR takes care of the gas/ethanol blend, CommandedEQRatio cancels out any enrichment due to warm-up or PE included in the CommandedAFR and finally the WideBandO2Lambda (yes, lambda not AFR) corrects errors in calibration as it's the feedback from the real world.
JBZ, if it's not working for you, I would double check all the parameters used so that they correspond to those of 2.24.
My thinking was to use any way possible to calculate the air going through the engine as that's one of the main components in VE calculation, no black magic there.
([50151.254]+[50152.254])/2000*[6210.71]*[50127.238]*[50118.234]*[50118.238]*(273.15+[50011.241])*1000/[50030.91]
so I decided to try and use your first equation in the (calculate from WBo2) and it works pretty good.
2010 CTS-V A6, Airaid CAI, 2.4 pulley, ported ls7 throttle body, ID850s, ARH 1-7/8" headers and X pipe, TR7IX plugs, MSD wires, Elite catch can, ZL1 lid and Track Attack HX
Yep its official you guys rock!
Im gonna sneak around tonight and absorb what you guys posted. I was wondering where you guys were getting all the sensor info from to put in the expressions. From what I read its in where I write paramiters so I should be able to find that without an issue. Ill impliment the changes tonight and hopefully without issue and report back.
If I Have the channel correct for my wideband I should be able to play back old logs like with the other airflow models right?
Why do you guys insist on using IAT instead of MAT? And why do you keep manually converting it to Kelvin instead of using the same info the pcm will use? If you streamline your equations it's easier to spot potential problems, it limits the possible noise in the equations and makes them more accurate.
I'm not sure if MAT was even an available PID with '06 E38 and 2.24 I used while developing these so I don't know any better.
What's the native unit (as used inside ECM) for MAT? As default HPT is not offering Kelvins so I doubt it may not be Kelvins, which is the SI unit needed in the equation. In that case the transformation is done by HPT if you wan't to skip the "273.15" part. Wouldn't be the first, nor the last time I'm wrong, though.
As a side note, most of the PID's used by HPT are regular ODB2 Mode 01 PID's but MAT has to be an OEM specific PID.
Since MAT seems to be available in NA ECM's as well, I would guess, emphasis on the word guess, that the MAT is result of the weighing function between the IAT and ECT. When JBZ first mentioned MAT, I thought it's a regular temp sensor that can be found from LSA and LS9 plenums only. I will add MAT to my list of logged variables and see how it behaves compared to IAT and ECT.
MAT is available on E38's and has been since at least 2.24
You can change IAT or MAT to K natively by using the unit .240. 241 is C, 242 is F. Not a big deal either way. It's not a difficult conversion or anything..
MAT is calculated base on IAT, ECT and the bias and filter tables. It basically biases MAT towards IAT when air is moving fast (i.e. doesn't have time to heat up) and biases towards ECT when air is moving slow (i.e. has time to heat up). The filter table also factors in how fast the vehicle is moving on some vehicles.
For those of us with IAT's in the manifold then they should be the same, assuming you updated the bias/filter tables properly.
Post a log and tune if you want help
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As I said previously MAT is available in all gen 4 ECMs. It has been since at least 2.24, if before. It isn't available, as far as I know, for Gen 3 so a little ingenuity is required.
The scanner is very powerful and is able to log imperial and metric standard units, as well as many SI units. Things like logging your IPW in seconds rather than milliseconds and multipling. Simplifying your equation help others help you. Get familiar with the scanner.
As schpenxel said if move your IAT into the manifold, ie most PD blower kits, then you need to adjust your MAT bias and filter settings.
The point I was trying to make is that any conversion from the units used by ECM is done by HPT, so it's not a biggie if you use degC or degK as long as the formula is adjusted accordingly. I'm familiar with the concept how the temperature of the air entering the combustion chamber is estimated, I just didn't know the output of the calculation was available as a PID. It seems not a day passes by without something new learned.
Great news its all running right! I do have a few questions on the scanning procedures. Im familiar with tuning with fuel trims in closed loop and wide open throttle tuning the maf with my wideband but this seems to be a different ball game. I noticed someone mentioned using different models depending on what area your tuning.
1. Do I still disable DFCO? Im assuming yes
2. Performance enrichment
3. WOT
4. Should I disable closed loop?
5. I don't have primary cats so COT is already off
6. Im going to try to make a custom math based on Eaglegoats suggestions to see if I can get rid my training wheels. I have an LSA so all the MAT is definitely there.
If the procedures are laid out somewhere else please just tell me to look harder. And if there are any whatever you do don't do this! tips for tuning this way please let me know those.
Ive just had all these questions in my head and couldn't wait to get back to the laptop to get back to you guys. Going to work in a min to tie a bow on this work week.
What a great thread. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this.
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1) DFCO off.
2) No need to disable PE. If you do the math right it's accounted for.
3) Not sure what you mean.
4) Yes. Disable long and short turn trims.
5) Cool.
6) Let me know if you have any questions.
Your a damn gangster!
After I wrote the PE question I remebered how it was explained it was built into the correct equation.
I assume my WOT thing is answered by the PE not being altered.
Im sure ill have a few more questions after I do some serious logging.
Thank you again!
If that's what you meant by WOT then yes.
Are you planning on running in MAF only and subsequently building a VE table, running in SD and building a MAF table, or running if hybrid mode and building both?
There is an error in Barnum's Calculated GMVE (from WBo2) equation:
(InjectorPW_B1[ms] + InjectorPW_B2[ms]) / 2000 * InjectorFlowRate[g/s] * WideBandO2Lambda * CommandedAFR * CommandedEQRatio * (273.15 + IAT[C]) * 1000 / MAP[kPa]
You don't want to multiply by the commanded eq and by commanded lambda. You want to multiply by the quotient of WBlambda and CMDlambda otherwise you get erroneous numbers.
I wanted to do hybrid and build both but my maf is pretty much +-1 error from the last time I tuned it. JBZ had given me a vve map from his work since we have mostly identical mods.
I failed both fuel trims based on the coolant temp settings and o2 delay.
I logged for a little while a little reluctantly my wideband reading were -+10% for the most part had a couple areas that showed knock around 2* or lower.
I was going to write back after I was done waxing the car because I wanted to understand how tuning in open loop worked?
Tuning with fuel teims and applying the error is pretty straight same as with eq error for maf at wot but how to best apply these graphs to come to the desired result is what it will ultimately boil down.
I have been given several powerful tools but how and when is best to use them is where im at right now. Im having the time of my life though
Comanded afr*(wbl ambda*cmd lambda)?
I wish my math teacher talked to me about cars. I would have probably paid attention
So run in MAF only and build the VE table.I wanted to do hybrid and build both but my maf is pretty much +-1 error from the last time I tuned it. JBZ had given me a vve map from his work since we have mostly identical mods.
I failed both fuel trims based on the coolant temp settings and o2 delay.
I logged for a little while a little reluctantly my wideband reading were -+10% for the most part had a couple areas that showed knock around 2* or lower.
I was going to write back after I was done waxing the car because I wanted to understand how tuning in open loop worked?
Tuning with fuel teims and applying the error is pretty straight same as with eq error for maf at wot but how to best apply these graphs to come to the desired result is what it will ultimately boil down.
I have been given several powerful tools but how and when is best to use them is where im at right now. Im having the time of my life though
Comanded afr*(wbl ambda/cmd lambda)
Sounds good. Thank you again.
added to my channels list...guess I had forgot to add it in. on vacation so when I get back ill remap all my custom maths over to MAT instead of IAT2 and see what that produces. thanks and good call, guess I didn't pick up on it being available from your other posts earlier.
2010 CTS-V A6, Airaid CAI, 2.4 pulley, ported ls7 throttle body, ID850s, ARH 1-7/8" headers and X pipe, TR7IX plugs, MSD wires, Elite catch can, ZL1 lid and Track Attack HX
You guy's are catching on!
I take most of this one step more and apply a correction to the back calculated GMVE based on lambda error so that the GMVE it spits out is accurate. I then take the "corrected GMVE" and calculate a GMVE Error based on the GMVE PID logged which is a direct lookup from the VE/VVE table.
I use the dynamic airflow PID for airflow while running in MAF only mode. This is because the dynamic airflow is the final airflow value used by the ECM/PCM to calculate fueling with.
Last edited by LSxpwrdZ; 09-04-2016 at 12:49 AM.
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