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Thread: Need some help with injector scale for twin turbos - E67 - TBSS

  1. #1
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    Need some help with injector scale for twin turbos - E67 - TBSS

    I'm working on the tune for my 2007 TBSS that is going to get twin turbos. I just finished the return fuel system with -8 lines and dual Walbro 450 pumps in the tank, and I installed DeatschWerks / Bosch 95lb injectors. Other than a 4L80E running off T43 TCM with 2008 Chevy Express OS (and the above mentioned mods), the truck is essentially stock.

    DW provides all of the necessary injector numbers, so I put those in the tune already. I've decided on a 50% scale, so other than flattening then splitting the IFR table in half, I've scaled all the tables I can find by 50% - modified the label axis when I could, everything else was multiply by .50. Here is a short list of what I've done so far:

    Modified for 12592525 MAP
    MAF table x .50
    Cranking table x .50
    VE Coefficients adjusted (all VE tables x .50 via "Virtual Volumetric Efficiency")
    IFR set for return fuel system at 44psi (injectors flow 86lb/hr at 44 psi, table set to 43lb/hr flat)
    Offset vs. Press vs. IGNV, Short Pulse Limit, Short Pulse adder, and Min Injector Pulse adjusted per manufacturer specs (nothing adjusted here)

    Following spark tables "scaled" (multiplied all by .50 - not sure this is done right):
    -Max Torque Timing
    -Main spark (high octane / low octane / HO (DOD) / LO (DOD)
    -Idle Spark Advance (Base / Coastdown)
    -IAT Spark (Base / Base Hi)
    -ECT Spark (Base)
    -Cat Lightoff (Normal / Coast / Idle P/N / Idle Gear)
    -Variable Cam Spark
    -Flex Fuel Spark
    -EGR Correction

    Supercharger enabled, no TQ Mgmt

    No boost yet, just the fuel system changes. The truck will start but it's not right. I'm not sure if I get the whole idea of scaling, regardless of the multitude of things I've read. I'm hoping someone can take a look at my tune (I also attached the base tune for comparison). Am I missing something?

    Thanks in advance
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    Last edited by eclipse5302; 09-13-2016 at 07:08 PM.
    2007 Trailblazer SS - LS2 | S256sx + S256sx | E85 | Built 4L80-E
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  2. #2
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    I'm attaching a log - probably need to set up the scanner better, but it's a start.

    It's way too rich. I reset the trims and it gets negative pretty quickly. I don't have the WB connected yet, but I plan to do that soon. Do I need to do a MAF tune to get it right, even though I only changed injectors? Or did I miss something in the scale?
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  3. #3
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    I assume you will be tuning that setup in speed density...if so, I would simply use the Double Stoich and half IFR and IVT Terms>AFR term. Then you can return all your airflow/torque models back to stock/modified. You won't need to scale them which makes this strategy much easier to implement. You will probably run into trouble getting a MAF to settle down twith the TT setup.

    Also you are tuned for a Vacuum referenced regulator...that is correct?

    If you are staying with the MAF then you need to set High RPM Disable/Re-enable to 400/390.

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  4. #4
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    Do what Ed suggests.

    If you insist on scaling the whole thing then it looks like you've done it wrong on the spark tables, etc.

    You have to move the data from say the 1.2 g/sec row or column to the 0.6 g/sec row or column, you can't just cut it in half. That's the only way to make it line up if you're going that route. You can edit the axis labels on some but then you're still effectively maxing out those tables at the same amount of actual airflow. At that point you might as well just do it the easy way like Ed suggested..

    Much easier to do it like Ed suggested. If you need to change a few axis labels on the spark tables or something like that later to get you some extra room in the high airflow sections then that's no biggie to do
    Post a log and tune if you want help

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  5. #5
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    This is good news. I was under the impression that the double stoich method didn't work with the E67...but maybe I misunderstood. I should've tried it at least, because I wasn't looking forward to scaling everything.

    Yes, I'm running a Vacuum referenced regulator. I'll put everything back and try the method Ed suggested.

    A few more questions:

    1. I want to apply the "Manifold Vacuum" patch with this setup, correct?
    2. Why does my MAP show 40Kpa at idle (11 inmg) when it should be closer to 55-60 (17 inmg measured with gauge)?
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  6. #6
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    1. Yes
    2. They are probably based on different scales. MAP is based on 0 being a perfect vacuum while your gauge is probably based around 0 being atmospheric pressure. If you add the two readings together they equal ~100kpa, which would make sense if this is the case.
    Post a log and tune if you want help

    VCM Suite V3+ GETTING STARTED THREADS / HOW TO's

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  7. #7
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    Sounds good, thanks!
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  8. #8
    Senior Tuner mowton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse5302 View Post
    2. Why does my MAP show 40Kpa at idle (11 inmg) when it should be closer to 55-60 (17 inmg measured with gauge)?
    If you are running a stock cam or one that has very little overlap then you would see 40-45 kPa at idle....makes nice vacumn :-)

    Ed M
    2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430

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  9. #9
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    So, after doing as suggested:

    -Returned tune to stock, copied injector data in SPA / Offsets / etc
    -Multiplied Stoich table by 2 (now reads 43 across the board)
    -Multiplied IFR table and and IVT Terms>AFR term table by .50

    The truck will start and run, but it's super rich. Like LTFTs in the negative double-digits. Doesn't seem to matter if I go SD or not, same result. Seeing as though this was an injector change only, I don't have to get into the full tuning yet, right?

    New tune attached
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  10. #10
    Tuning Addict 5FDP's Avatar
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    Any injector change require full tuning.
    2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.

    If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.

  11. #11
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    Stoichio = 14.678 x 2 = 29.356
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  12. #12
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    For your injectors - Did you use the 400kpa cell to set your table by? 400kpa = 58psi / Next question... What fuel pressure is your base pressure regulator set to? Is it set without the boost/vacuum reference line being hooked up and with the pump flowing fuel - no engine running?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  13. #13
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    The spreadsheet provided with the injectors (attached) specified that at 44.1 psi, the injectors flow 86lb/hr. I divided this number by 2 and put it in the IFR table / all cells. I set the FPR to 44.1 PSI, engine off, line disconnected. Stoich table starts at 0% / 29.356 and goes down from there (multiplied the original table by .50).
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  14. #14
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    Voltage table - forgot about that one... Set all of your cells to the 308kpa cell... Other than this - You should be setting all of your flow rate table by what's in the 308kpa cell too then... Only thing I could think of throwing off fueling off the top of my head right now... Unless your just seeing this issue on a hot restart after flashing?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
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  15. #15
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    You should also be closer to something like 3 in your flow rate table... I don't recommend this, but you can make small changes to your flow rate until fueling comes more in line with where it was before the injector change if that's all you did was change injectors...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Voltage table - forgot about that one... Set all of your cells to the 308kpa cell... Other than this - You should be setting all of your flow rate table by what's in the 308kpa cell too then... Only thing I could think of throwing off fueling off the top of my head right now... Unless your just seeing this issue on a hot restart after flashing?
    What voltage table? I tried looking for a table matching that description, but couldn't find one.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    You should also be closer to something like 3 in your flow rate table... I don't recommend this, but you can make small changes to your flow rate until fueling comes more in line with where it was before the injector change if that's all you did was change injectors...
    So you're saying the IFR table would be "3" in all cells, or I should add "3" to the cells? I did just that last night - and while it brought the LTFTs back into line, it still wasn't right. It started and idled fine, but going down a hill the engine was pulling the truck. If I put it into neutral, it would rev-up a little.

    As for the complete re-tune...I was initially thinking that if the injectors were all that was changed, it shouldn't require a full re-tune. If the E67 is equation based, and I put in the correct data for the injectors, why would it need to be completely re-tuned? I didn't change the engine mechanically (yet). I'm OK with doing a re-tune, I just don't want to do it because I missed something in the injector change throwing everything off.
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  18. #18
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    In theory you could change injectors, change data, and be fine

    In reality, not so much

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse5302 View Post
    What voltage table? I tried looking for a table matching that description, but couldn't find one.
    Offset vs Pressure vs Ignition Volts...

    A "retune" is advised due to your initial scaling - trust us on this - If you do not scale everything correctly when doing a full scale - It IS VERY LIKELY that you will not only knock when unnoticed and damage pistons and or heads, but you will probably kill your transmission too... SO if you want to risk it and try this route, then by all means go ahead... I will no longer scale entirely - lifted the heads off of one one time just because I overlooked the friggin knock tables - scaled every other table and missed those... Plus if your using big injectors and a fuel pressure regulator on a newer ecm, it is highly unlikely that you will ever need to do a full scale... Plus your losing spark table clarity...

    As long as your starting over with a stock tune and just doing the double stoichio and half flow rate - that's all that's needed... There is no reason at all to scale the injectors then turn around and scale the whole tune if that's what your doing...

    I was referring to putting 3's in the table where you've got 4.something for the flow rate right now too
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Offset vs Pressure vs Ignition Volts...

    A "retune" is advised due to your initial scaling - trust us on this - If you do not scale everything correctly when doing a full scale - It IS VERY LIKELY that you will not only knock when unnoticed and damage pistons and or heads, but you will probably kill your transmission too... SO if you want to risk it and try this route, then by all means go ahead... I will no longer scale entirely - lifted the heads off of one one time just because I overlooked the friggin knock tables - scaled every other table and missed those... Plus if your using big injectors and a fuel pressure regulator on a newer ecm, it is highly unlikely that you will ever need to do a full scale... Plus your losing spark table clarity...

    As long as your starting over with a stock tune and just doing the double stoichio and half flow rate - that's all that's needed... There is no reason at all to scale the injectors then turn around and scale the whole tune if that's what your doing...

    I was referring to putting 3's in the table where you've got 4.something for the flow rate right now too

    I'm going the double stoich / half flow method. No need to reinvent the wheel.

    Going this route, the otherwise stock tune seemed happiest with 50 lb/hr flow rate at 43.5 PSI. Driving around and things seems much better. Oddly enough, I'm getting a P1101 that seems to occur almost at every start-up. I don't know why that would be happening. It "seemed" to appear after changing the MAP, but I have the right numbers in there for that.
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