98 octane of fuel stock in europe

[transamb]

what timing can i give to a shevy silverado 2005 5,3l I live in belgium europe and we have 98 octane of fuel over here (always) and i just purchased the hp tuners program I know on the old cars with maual timing icould advance the timing with 6to 7 degrees whithout a ping and there whas abig diference in drivebilety and performance
does anyone have any experiance or sugertions

[softy91]

transamb,

First let me say that I am envious that you can dispense fuel that hot there. I can scarcely get by on 23 degrees of WOT timing in my Z06. Every now and then a hot day or will a bad tank of gas will bring on a case of the pings. I have to carry octane booster everywhere I go because I have as much timing as the engine will normally stand on our Great 91 octane here in SoCal.

In your High Octane ignition table I would try 27 degrees as a starting point WOT and do some logging. I don’t your combination (engine, vehicle weight, drag and/or gearing), so on the road logging is the only way to get answers.

I don’t remember who posted on the subject, but using search on this site will get you a wealth of information on tuning your timing here on this site.

Good luck !

[transamb]

softy 91
thanks for the advice

[stevieturbo]

Dont be confused into thinking Euro/UK 98 octane is anywhere near what you guys in the US have.

UK 98 RON fuel is closer to 91 octane you guys get.

A friend had a Viper supercharged in the US not long ago, running 93 octane pump fuel.

When he returned home, and started using 98 RON, it was detonating like mad.

I think he had to pull about 3-4 degrees in places to keep it quiet.

[tici]

Dont be confused into thinking Euro/UK 98 octane is anywhere near what you guys in the US have.

UK 98 RON fuel is closer to 91 octane you guys get.

A friend had a Viper supercharged in the US not long ago, running 93 octane pump fuel.

When he returned home, and started using 98 RON, it was detonating like mad.

I think he had to pull about 3-4 degrees in places to keep it quiet.

Ha! I just wanted to say the same. In Switzerland we have 95, 98 and 100 (100 only from Shell, apparently developed together with Ferrari - ???).
But I don't know how to compare our rating with the USA.
98 Here is fine for my 5 PSI of boost (17*), or without blower for 28* no KR.
95 works also but I prefer 98.
In Germany 95 is a complete s-h-i-t and I was seeing up to 7 KR (!!!) with out blower and cruising at 90 mph.

[transamb]

i live in Belgium i drive a 89-transam 5,0L TPI engine i put on a procharger blower with 15 psi of boost and intercooler compleet exaust system the car puts 443HP on the test bench(daily driver )i drive the car on stock 98-oct of fuel the vendor from procharger told me to use a boost ignition modifer(MSD-CRANE-) or the engine would ping i put in 2 ping sensors 1Left 1Richt on 95 oct the car can ping when the engine is verry hot in warm wether on 98 oct it runs fine in all sytuations even on the OTC testscaner everything is OK without boost modifier so ther must be a diferece in the fuel there is even a diference in brands they even smell diferent when u drive on them my best result is with TEXACO the worst result is SHELL(pings all the time) >
Also if u drive a porche-mecedes slk-bmw M3-M5 all of these cars have less power in the US they even have diferent engine parts than in europe
if u take japanese cars there is even a biger diference there are some engines EU-only US-only and some engines for both

[tici]

transamb,
do you see knock retard with the sensors or do you hear ping?
Does it happen with the hot engine (what is you temperature?) or with hot charge air?
I guess you have the stock cast heads or are they aluminum?

I see knock retard when the charge air is hot (60 celsius). My engine stays constant at 200 - 205F.

How much timing you have when under boost at WOT?

[transamb]

tici
i have alu heads with 62cc of combustion chamber and stock pistons 160* thermostat engine temp is constant at 175*-180* air charge temperature is with hot day(over27*celcius)45*to55*max i dont hear a ping i see retard on the OTC of 6-7* on 95 oct never on98 oct but i have a verry big intercooler on the car my max timing at wot is32*

[tici]

15 PSI and 32* of timing... On a LS1 with so much boost you usually are lower that 20* (15 to 19* are realistic).
How much compression ratio you have with 62 cc?
Is the old 5 L engine that different than the LS1? Does it measure timing in a different way? A different zero point?

[transamb]

tici
compresion ratoi is 8.5 to1 the timing is mearured by the map sensor ant intake temperature sensor the hotter it gets the les timing my map sensor is still the original one so at wot it does not know that there is even a-boost present it goes to 100 like there is no boost but ther is a special fuel presure regulator and fuel pump that measures the boost presure so he gives more fuel under boost the procharger system is a direct fit and they have the best boost system that i know of(ihave instald diferent brands before in the garage where i work) chek it out on there website( http://www.procharger.com/)originaly the 5,0L is a slow engine whith low compresion and in the transam 230HP it is always better to start with a slow engine if you want to get a-forced induction they give les troble and the results are better afterwards the LS1 is already fast as it is and has a higher comp ratio the bers advice i can give is too get the temperature as low as posibel the lower the temp of air enterring the engine the more boost is posibel without damaging the engine

[tici]

Mhhh... it was better not to sell my old 91 Firebird, more or less the same engine ;D

With my water injection I drop the charge air by about 100F. Down to 30 - 35 celsius and I could now install a smaller pulley in the blower.
I'm just afraid to brake something: the transmission is at his limit and the differental probably also, so I will stay where I am (410 RWHP).

How are the regulations in Belgium about modified cars? Here they'll bust my butt if they catch me. That's why I installed a "no-power-switch": it adds a resistance to the IAT and increases the intake temperature up to 100 celsius. I programmed to have only 5 degrees of timing for that temperature. If the police put the car on the dyno they should see about the stock power (hope so)

[transamb]

tici
we are not alowed to tune a car but there is no control over it you only have to make sure that your insurance in up to the power you have in case of a verry big accident (death) otherwise they say you are not encured and all of the damage is for you

[tici]

Same here for the insurance. The police will also be happy to put it on the dyno because the fine is proportional to the added power
That's why my "power button".
If they belive that the blower is making no power is another story, but I bet they won't find it out (hope so).

[stevieturbo]

I think the US rating is (RON+MON) / 2

In Euroland, we use RON only, which is higher. The RON and MON use 2 different test methods.

As another indicator. I bolted a Vortech YSi to my stock LS1 engine here.
10.2:1 CR, and it made about 8-9psi at 6000rpm.

At max boost, I could only give it about 14deg of timing. That is wayyy down on what some of you guys are running with similar boost, where I read some are using nearer 20deg.
IAT's are within a few degF of ambient, and mixtures were rich.

Not only is fuel in Europe generally about 5-10 times the price of what you get in the US, its of much lower quality, as far as performance is concerned anyway.

[tici]

Where are you located? 5 - 10 higher price than USA... ???
In Switzerland we pay 1.60 Swiss Francs per liter, about $1.25 per liter or $4.70 per gallon.
Germany, France and Italy are higher but not 5 - 10 times more!!!

Timing: with 5 - 6 PSI I run 17 degrees. I bump it up gradually to 23 degreed but I saw no power increase at all. No KR on the dyno but some on the street so I went back to 17*.
17* on the street I see zero KR.

AFR is 12.5 but I inject 5 GPH a mix of water ethanol 50% (AFR measured injecting water alone or alcohol will give a different value).

Intake temperature: Where is your IAT? I guess before the blower.
Many (myself also) put it after the blower. In this way you can reduce timing automatically depending on temperature. You can keep it at (example) 22* and reduce it gradually to 14* when the air becomes hot.

What is your car?

Stefano

[stevieturbo]

SUL/97RON here in the UK/Northern Ireland is usually about 96p/l give or take.

Ive heard in places, that its over £1 per litre. Thats £4.55 per gallon.

At todays exchange rate, that is about US $8 per gallon.

About 80-85% of that price is made up in taxes.

My car is a 1980 Ford Granada, with the LS1+T56 fitted.

I am measuring IAT's just before the throttle, after the intercooler. Highest I have seen them whilst driving is about 35degC, which was recently on a very very hot day. In more normal weather so far, they stay around mid 20degC

[tici]

A crazy price!!!
Here is also mostly taxes but not that much. Are you paying other car related taxes? Here it goes by the engine: the bigger the higher (with a 5.7L it's about 450£ per year.

What kind of intercooler are you using? air/water/air or air/air?
That's a very low temperature
Mine goes that low only spraying water/alcohol. THis happens only under boost and during normal operation igoes up and down depending on wheater and speed. Stuck in traffic it can go up to 60 celsius!

[stevieturbo]

Crazy price indeed, and rising almost every week it seems.

We have to pay Road tax, every year which is about £170 per year for anything over 1600cc

Generally here, weather is pretty cool, usually, high teens, to 20's on a good day. Although we did recently have a few hot days.

I have a reasonably sized air-air intercooler. Its actually 2 cores welded together ( from my old twin turbo rover V8 setup ) totalling about 22" wide, 15" tall, and 3.5" deep.

I may consider one of these "alky" systems that a lot of people use, as they do seem to get good results, when using pure methanol, more for its octane boosting properties, than its cooling effect. But both help.

[tici]

A little warmer here: about 30 in summer.
Strange: if we have 20 - 25 degrees I have a relatively low charge air remperature, but with 30 and up degrees the intake air gets really hot.
with my water injection I picked up over than 30 RWHP just because of the cooler air.
No detonation at all.
What is your AFR? you wrote about 14 degreed max, pretty low.
Vortech sets 17 degrees for the 6 and the 9 PSI kits so you should be able to go a little higher (20 or so).
The standard Vortech tune sets the AFR to about 11.5 - 12.0
Maybe the plugs are a problem, are they colder as stock? How are them gapped?

Stefano

[stevieturbo]

I was running my AFR's around 11.5 Timing was slightly higher mid range, but dropping to 14deg at top end ( 6k )

I could maybe have squeezed another 1-2 degrees, but it would have been risky, and I wasnt wanting to break a standard bottom end.
My ecu doesnt have a knock retard facility, so I dont have that safety backup.

I was using TR6 plugs in that engine. I think I gapped them at 35 thou.

Im on another engine now anyway, although still in the early stages with it, and sorting some problems.

Its forged 5.7, 8.7:1, heads, cam etc. So far its taking 13psi @ 6k, although the cam I used isnt working as I hoped. Im in the middle of changing it now for something a bit wilder. Having botehr sorting the preload, as when I installed it, the valves were being held open, so Im waiting on shorter pushrods arrivng as I type.

Was very surprised to see the difference in pulleys/boost with the 2 engines.

With the stock 5.7 + YSi, I was using an 8.25/4" combo, 8 rib. With the new engine initially, I dropped to a 3.65" blower. It still gave me the same overall boost ! Looks like a good increase in airflow.
I'm now on a 8.25/3.3" 10rib. It'll be interesting to see how this works with the new cam
I have a 3.15" here too, and a 3" on order from ASP, just in case


I'm up to about 16deg timing at 13psi with the new engine ( old LPE cam though )
It would be in the low 20's midrange, dropping to 16 though at 6k.