All Kinds of Limits

[Lidio Iacobelli]

Wanted to report that I tried raising the Spark "low-load-limit" in an effort to help or cure the Tip-in spark retard, and that didn't result any changes at all unfortunately.

And I only messed with the Expected TIP tables a bit more yesterday, but raising them quite a bit under in the area's from 3lb to 12lbs, and from 80k turbo RPM to about 150k rpm. And again, no difference in the limited boost in 1st gear and only 1st gear when starting from a very dead stop or very low role, like under about 10mph.

Over all this tune makes the truck feel substantially better and performance much better all around, but not so much in first gear over the stock tuning.

[reubone]

have you fiddled with the torque ratio settings for fuel and spark? lspi reduction, messed any more with this?

[Lidio Iacobelli]

have you fiddled with the torque ratio settings for fuel and spark? lspi reduction, messed any more with this?

I actually did a little, but learned that the spark and fuel TQ ratio tables only give permission of how much of the spark or fuel can be used to cut power or TQ. they usually don't have an effect on Tip-in spark, or under full load unless the TCS kicks in, or for shift TQ reductions and things like that. I did leave all the Tip-in ones set to 1,, which turns them off basically.. but still didn't help.

All the LSPi stuff it pretty much maxed out and has been almost since I first started messing with the truck a few weeks ago.

[Eric@HPTuners]

I am investigating the 1st gear limit. So far nothing I am logging indicates what is causing it. I will update as I figure this one out.

[metroplex]

On the pre-15 EcoBoost, the Pressure Ratio table for some reason influences the boost limit in 1st and some of 2nd gear. Once I raised the PR values from stock, I could hit max boost in all gears. However, 15-up doesn't have this Pressure Ratio table for some reason.

The PR table doesn't make any sense to me as the regions where you're active would have more than enough PR value to accomodate the boost levels, yet if kept stock, it severely limits boost in 1st and some of 2nd gear to basically stock levels..

[murfie]

After filtering the log for the spark tipin I was seeing torque control as the spark source in the lower spark values. I would raise the highlighted area of the IPC torque maximum in the picture. The light area is where you have already raised values. comparing some of the MPs there are areas where they are above the maximum torque in this area.

TIPIN TQ.PNG

[reubone]

anyone figured out what engine inertia torque is?

[Lidio Iacobelli]

anyone figured out what engine inertia torque is?

I've experimented with Inertia TQ in both directions and I didnt see it effect anything on my 2.7L

[Lidio Iacobelli]

After filtering the log for the spark tipin I was seeing torque control as the spark source in the lower spark values. I would raise the highlighted area of the IPC torque maximum in the picture. The light area is where you have already raised values. comparing some of the MPs there are areas where they are above the maximum torque in this area.

TIPIN TQ.PNG

I attempted to raise the IPC table you referred to anywhere from 10% to 15% in the area's you suggested and the rest of the table as well.. And unfortunately it didn't seem to have any effect on the tip-in spark reduction or the lower boost in 1st gear as opposed to the rest of the gears at WOT. I have a screen shot of the table where I left off.

And also including today's data log of some various WOT in first and rolling into 2nd gear.

Thanks

[murfie]

Heres a set of graphs to dial in your transient Accel and decel gain tables. Try fixing these tables to help with the lean tip in and out you have and see if that helps reduce some of the knock retard happening during this time.

Transient acc-decel error.Layout.xml

Ignore the low MAP area. Its skewed from DFCO values.

[Lidio Iacobelli]

Heres a set of graphs to dial in your transient Accel and decel gain tables. Try fixing these tables to help with the lean tip in and out you have and see if that helps reduce some of the knock retard happening during this time.

Transient acc-decel error.Layout.xml

Ignore the low MAP area. Its skewed from DFCO values.

Murfie,

Sorry for my ignorance,, but what is the .xml file you've attached? How do I open it or what is it?


Thanks

[murfie]

In the scanner click the highlighted button in the picture and open layout. browse to XML and open graphs in scanner. Save your current layout first to open it later.

XML.PNG

[Lidio Iacobelli]

In the scanner click the highlighted button in the picture and open layout. browse to XML and open graphs in scanner. Save your current layout first to open it later.

XML.PNG

Will be trying this as soon as I can sometime today !

I didn't catch that it was a data-log layout,,, Sorry

Thank you

[Lidio Iacobelli]

Will be trying this as soon as I can sometime today !

I didn't catch that it was a data-log layout,,, Sorry

Thank you

Got a data log with this layout config. I did several off idle tip-ins in "N" and the several in "D". All while not moving, just rapid throttle snaps. You can see the spark go plenty negative while doing this. The A/F isn't a problem from what I can see,, though its clearly all the spark reduction that can sometimes be felt as flat spot or basically a tiny hesitation. Does it while all stock too.

This log also has a near dead stop WOT shot starting in first gear thru 3rd gear, so you can see the lower boost thru all of first and then instantly allows more in 2nd gear.

I've done nothing to any of the transient tables you've referred to so far.

I recorded with your layout, but when I re-opened the log, I think it went back to my default layout?


Thanks

[murfie]

Well your driver demand table is much higher than it needs to be in the lower RPM low pedal areas. This is causing your torque control as the demanded torque is much higher than the actual calculated engine torque. This is causing pedal lag as well as the timing drop before the actual throttle blade opens. You still need to apply the error from those graphs I gave you to the appropriate tables to correct the fueling.

18-20% difference in actual and command lambda and 4% fuel trims is transient fuel issue.

fueling.PNG

Reign in(lower) the DD table torque in the area of idle/ just off idle torque and you will have better throttle response/ tipin timing. Just not so much that you get surging.

DDTQ.PNG

Also you should add the output shaft speed channel so that you can see where you are in your pedal map ratio table. in the lower oss speeds (1st gear) you don't get a 30% increase as in the higher OSS speeds.

[reubone]

have you fiddled with torque surge torque clip?

Screenshot (62).png

[Lidio Iacobelli]

I'll add the OSS channel soon and watch that too.

I didn't think that it had any "fueling" problems over all? I mostly watch the actual A/F and the trims and thought it all looked very good and in range. But I'll still play with them.

As far as the driver demand table... I've never messed with it other then from about 59% and up. below that it is entirely stock still.

The pedal feel and off idle response is actually very good. Especially if you don't really rapidly hit the throttle, which most people don't smack the pedal like I've been doing and playing with.
Its just that there is quite a bit of tip-in timing pulled when the throttle is hit very quickly right off idle. It would just be nice to know what it is, correct it if we can,, and then put it back in if needed. Just sucks not know whats causing it and not having control over it in this particular application and tune.

But I'l try some of this.

[Lidio Iacobelli]

have you fiddled with torque surge torque clip?

Screenshot (62).png

I've raised the TQ surge table by just adding 10% or 20% to that whole thing a little bit at a time, and it doesn't seem to do anything under the conditions I've tried it.
The only thing I mostly watched for as I raised or turned off various TQ controls or limits is; that I don't loose the spark reduction during transmission upshifts or downshifts, and so far that part of it is working perfect still.

Attached is a log from this morning. I've managed to up the boost just a little more once its in 2nd gear thru 3rd gear at WOT.. about 18.5 to 20psi most of the WOT runs in here.

The very last run is in 4x4, so its a clean zero to about 80mph run with just a dead punch in 1st gear. It couldn't be more evident that the ECU is keeping a leash on the boost and TQ in 1st gear, and only 1st gear,,, lets it only get to about 11-12psi right till the shift point, then from there on up its over 18psi.
Truck feels great like this! but would be nice to know why or be able to control the boost better in 1st.

I may just try maxing out the entire TQ surge table and see what I get.


Thanks

[wristshot]

Hey guys,

This is one of the first times I've posted here. I've been using HP-tuners with GM's for nearly 10 years, and Hemi stuff for about 1/2 a year or so. My personal 2.7L Eco-boost f-150 is the very first time I've worked with HP tuners on a Ford product. I wanted to share with you 2.7L eco-boost guys what I've come up with on my personal 2016 f-150 with the little eco-boost motor. Thought this might be a good thread to get involved in.

SNIPPED OUT HUGE QUOTE...

Thank you guys

You seem to be having the same results that I experienced with my 2.7L. After first raising the Trans TQ limits, I ran into several limits (Comb Stab/Popcorn and Exh Temp Control/Exh Temp Protection) which I have not been able to get past. You mentioned that you haven?t seen the Popcorn limit, I would venture to guess if you log ?Torque Airlimit Source? it will raise its ugly head. Several kind members, including the great Ecoboost Wisperer Bugasu, have provided suggestions but thus far to no avail. Other limits such as Anti-clunk, Insufficient Fuel Flow, Turbo FMEM, etc. have not been an issue to conquer and it seems you have conquered them also.

I agree with you, I think there?s something missing in order to really max the performance out on these engines (though that?s not what I?m personally really after). I don?t know if there are calibration tables missing or if Ford has just ?hard coded? some limits/parameters into the main OS which HPTuners hasn?t found or doesn?t mess with (i.e. I don?t know if HPT can, or will, change the flow or hard coded parameters, of the base OS).

I too experience some of the things you have mentioned such as lower boost in 1st gear and big ignition timing retard during quick pedal transients. I haven?t put any real effort into trying to find a solution to the timing retard though as I?m not convinced it will help with the lag. For a normally aspirated engine design, I agree the timing retard would be a big problem, but this short period of retard may actually help spool the turbos up quicker which in the end may be a better trade-off.

Due to the limit thing, my current tune has transmission torque limits (raised from stock) that the engine can achieve. Setup like this, I don?t have any active limits, though the ?Throttle Angle Source? is always Torque Control. This gives me a sense of comfort compared to limit?s popping up all the time.

[Puggyberra]

I'll experiment with some of these in the next day or so and report back.

On the issue of lower boost in 1st gear,, should i then mess with the expected TIP Table? I've already raised it a bit across the board and then much more on the far right columns. and/or try something else?

Hey Lidio, sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I recently ran across what I think may be causing that tip in retard issue (if you haven't gotten it sorted out yet). I'm also tuning a 2.7 F-150 (2016), I found that if I enabled the optimum power table (under variable camshaft -> mapped points configuration) that I started getting a large spark retard and 'hesitation' when matting the accelerator in a gear. With that mapped point disabled the issue went away entirley.

I have not found a solution to the 1st gear limit aside from that it is only from a stop, if you lock it in first until the punch and roll up to 15 mph(ish) and floor it you can get full load/boost for the rest of the gear.

If you have already figured out the optimum power table issue hopefully this will help someone else with a similar issue.