Large Injectors, PW very high when revving only.

[Boosted53f]

^+1 Schpenxel and Ghuggins
i may not know everything there is to the v8's because i came from the land of half an engine but after tuning gm ve since 2005 i learned you dont have to force the car into open loop to tune a VE table if you know what your doing.
I still use a wideband because its accurate and provides a better picture due to its speed but closed loop trimming is what is eventually going to be turned back on so if you dont take its errors into account when tuning ve in the first place then you always have an error offset after letting the ecu take back over.

the other reason i agree with schpenxel is, even if the injector sees a massive error at 1.8 that doesnt mean anything until the ve has been verified in that range. If the ve if off far enough in the range of the error then of course it bottoms out in that PW. everything relates back to a well defined ve table. The OP keeps making corrections to the injector base settings but hasnt once shown a file that has a wideband reflecting a tuned in VE. finished the rest of the tune to see the true error in the injector definitions before making a base change. There is a possibility that once the ve is tuned in that this issue partially resolves itself.
Ed told him to post a log with the injector data he should be starting with. i would start with Ed's latest advice, this is how the OP will get his tuning experience to make forward progress again. Please just stop making base injector changes until it has been reviewed with the suggested data first.

Yes tuning in closed loop is just fine. I think everyone is getting off track here and forgetting the OPs issue. clearly injector settings need some attention.

I would not make ANY changes to the VE table until these are sorted out. Yes, Yes, Yes you can tune just fine in closed loop but you are having other issues. Stop recommending that the OP make changes using "trim tuning" to the VE table.... his first major issue with injector settings needs to be resolved. I still recommend a short drive and log with forced open loop to see how it runs. His trims are shooting hard negative because closed loop is unable to make PW changes under low map conditions... something I have dealt with recently and the fix is actually through injector settings, not by adjusting the VE using short term trims. Trims work by using PW changes.... if they cant do that because PW is bottomed out then there is no point in scaling the VE table down. you need to figure this out first.

to Tictack - your narrowbands look as though they are operating normally. your issue is with injector settings and bottoming out at idle because your injectors are fairly large. Force open loop using closed loop enable ETC or via the scanner and see if your idle injector PW drops from 1.8. just try it.

[Boosted53f]

again... do not walk yourself in a circle by adjusting the VE table with stftrims before you figure out your PW settings for that large of an injector.

[mowton]

This thread has taken a spin around.....I'll catch-up tonight. IPW going to 500 ms is a complete impossibility so something in the tune has to be greatly amiss. Also, don't see the narrowbands driving to 1000mv which you think they would. Which brings me to a question, is there a wideband in this setup? Is it being read through the EGR? If so what wideband so I can setup the "transform".

If that is what the OP wants to trace down first, then put the Transient>Miligram back to stock and see if the rev IPW goes to 500 ms. Imagine you can drive that value too low and create all kinds of transient response issues.

The High IPW is generated every time the OP went into PE...Those settings are a bit wacky as well. Waiting until 101 kPa is way too late in my books...trucks s/b like 60-70 kPa and cars like 80-85 (or 15-20 kPa below barometric pressure whichever comes first). Pedal should be reduced so the main criteria is load or the MAP value.

Lastly, when you said you copied the tune from the 2004 ECU (assume P59) into the 2002 0411 PCM, did you flash or do compare and copy over the tables. They are 2 different PCM architectures (512K vs 1024K) and not an expert, but wonder if there is an issue there. Maybe a smarter one can chime in on that.

Ed M

[tictakman]

Here is an updated tune and drive video. This is also injector info from FIC...

I am using the EGR port for my wideband which is a PLX wideband... I actually used your tutorial Ed to install it.

As I said before, I really dont know what would cause the high IPW but this new tune solved that issue it seems like.

When I did the copy for the ecus I used the compare and copy function.

Im a novice tuner at best so bear with me please.

11.7.16 Drive.hpl

Zak Tune 2 Bar 11.5.16 VE Table Changed and FIC Injector Data.hpt

FIC_1000cc_95.15LB_4BAR_ev14_HPT_rev_08 (1).xlsx

[Boosted53f]

I dont see any 100% tps blips on the scan you attached. Looks like your missing some stuff after your copy over from the auto ecu. how did you do this, copy all??

heres how I would tackle the injector settings.

Get the real flow data for flowrate vs kpa table or use an online calculator for this. It should start at 96.xxlbs/hr at 0 kpa and work its way up with more vacuum. The offset table isnt making any sense to me, but just copy the 5kpa column into the 0kpa column.

then..... set short pulse limit to 1.277 and Zero out short pulse adder table down to 1.22ms. set transient fuel mg to .020.

then..... find a stock file from the repository and copy all closed loop and 02 settings in. leave LTFTs off

im gonna take a guess and say your 500IPW during full rev is because of these 0 values in the flowrate and offset table.

[Boosted53f]

Here is an updated tune and drive video. This is also injector info from FIC...

I am using the EGR port for my wideband which is a PLX wideband... I actually used your tutorial Ed to install it.

As I said before, I really dont know what would cause the high IPW but this new tune solved that issue it seems like.

When I did the copy for the ecus I used the compare and copy function.

Im a novice tuner at best so bear with me please.

11.7.16 Drive.hpl

Zak Tune 2 Bar 11.5.16 VE Table Changed and FIC Injector Data.hpt

FIC_1000cc_95.15LB_4BAR_ev14_HPT_rev_08 (1).xlsx

ok great looks like they fixed the 0 values for you with injector data. I think you should still try my settings for PW limits and go from there. turn LTFTs off

so how is the car driving?

[mowton]

OK now its my turn...don't mess with the injector data, take the FIC data and use it. As you are running a BRFP, take the 0kPa values for both IFR and Offset and use that data across the entire table(s). The fuel pressure will be regulated maintaining a fixed delta pressure across the injector and a flat-lined IFR/Offset table is used in those setups. Use the 114..995 IFR and the Offset column in red. I have had no experience to have to mess with FIC data to get them to run....

I believe the 500 ms IPW was a product of the main PE being set to 101 kPA and the Boost Enrichment being set to 250 kPa. While you didn't change the main PE, you brought the boost PE down to 95 kPa. Also, IIRC, he said the 0's were a test after the fact and had the 500 ms IPW when they were filled in.

Also set P0101- P0103 to mil on first error and check ses....make sure you have Cehck engine light and dtc code P0103 to verify you have failed over to SD.

Now that the injector data has been altered I again would tune the VE to get it dialed in before tackling idle tuning. Gen III idle tuning requires the RussK idle scan and there is a video I put together showing how you can either import your 2.24 configs or create a new one from scratch in 3.X....check the Scanner stickies.

Ed M

[GHuggins]

Just make sure to set your min pulse widths down low - even lower than Boosted posted along with the transient milligrams... These were the tables I was talking about earlier to keep the injectors from "bottoming" out... I would still tune it with closed loop and PE acting how it's going to in real life, but that's me - I like to make sure all of my transients and other fueling parameters are going to work in unison correctly together - I also recommend using the injector data from the company you got the injectors from - it won't be perfect, but closer than made up info...

[Boosted53f]

OK now its my turn...don't mess with the injector data, take the FIC data and use it. As you are running a BRFP, take the 0kPa values for both IFR and Offset and use that data across the entire table(s). The fuel pressure will be regulated maintaining a fixed delta pressure across the injector and a flat-lined IFR/Offset table is used in those setups. Use the 114..995 IFR and the Offset column in red. I have had no experience to have to mess with FIC data to get them to run....

I believe the 500 ms IPW was a product of the main PE being set to 101 kPA and the Boost Enrichment being set to 250 kPa. While you didn't change the main PE, you brought the boost PE down to 95 kPa. Also, IIRC, he said the 0's were a test after the fact and had the 500 ms IPW when they were filled in.

Also set P0101- P0103 to mil on first error and check ses....make sure you have Cehck engine light and dtc code P0103 to verify you have failed over to SD.

Now that the injector data has been altered I again would tune the VE to get it dialed in before tackling idle tuning. Gen III idle tuning requires the RussK idle scan and there is a video I put together showing how you can either import your 2.24 configs or create a new one from scratch in 3.X....check the Scanner stickies.

Ed M

noted. good info. sorry i missed the test run. in regards to stfts and closed loop functionality, which tables allow idle PW to drop below 1.8? is that min fuel mg or PW limits? ive been wondering this for some time and cant pinpoint which one is driven in closed loop.

[mowton]

noted. good info. sorry i missed the test run. in regards to stfts and closed loop functionality, which tables allow idle PW to drop below 1.8? is that min fuel mg or PW limits? ive been wondering this for some time and cant pinpoint which one is driven in closed loop.

You can work the Min PW until it has no effect, then you go to the Transient Min Fuel Mg....

Also set the main PE to 85 Kpa/1.17 (.85 lambda) and verify that pedal setting is low enough to allow the 85 kPa to have full authority. Boost PE can be at like 105 kPa and the full 1.3 (.77 lambda)

Ed M

[tictakman]

You can work the Min PW until it has no effect, then you go to the Transient Min Fuel Mg....

Also set the main PE to 85 Kpa/1.17 (.85 lambda) and verify that pedal setting is low enough to allow the 85 kPa to have full authority. Boost PE can be at like 105 kPa and the full 1.3 (.77 lambda)

Ed M

Are you referring to
PE Enable-
Map= 85 Map
Hyst= 1.17

Boost Enrichment-
Map 105
Map Hyst= 1.3


Thanks

[mowton]

Are you referring to
PE Enable-
Map= 85 Map
Hyst= 1.17 -- No, EQ Ratio

Boost Enrichment-
Map 105
Map Hyst= 1.3 -- No, EQ Ratio


Thanks

Sorry..

Ed M

[Boosted53f]

Are you referring to
PE Enable-
Map= 85 Map
Hyst= 1.17

Boost Enrichment-
Map 105
Map Hyst= 1.3


Thanks

Those are enable map values he recommends

The 1.17 and 1.3 are eq ratios

So for PE 14.63/1.17 and BE 14.63/1.3. You will see how these adders work with the VE table. Essentially the VE table is stoich everywhere.... and then PE and BE are adders under tge conditions you set. So he means set conditions PE enabled to 85kpa... where pe add will make afr 14.63/1.17..... then BE after 105kpa to 14.63/1.3. Should be nice transition as you lay into it.

Apologies for camping out on your thread. I am working on a couple boost files and alot of good info here

[tictakman]

10 4.

I dont mind at all, just like the informative help from everyone.

[tictakman]

Here is the latest with the changes made from above. The car feels a little bit better with these adjustments but I know it needs a lot more. I have only slowly rolled into the throttle but if feels like a dog so far. lol

Is there a reason why the kpa wont go over 105 in the scanner? I changed the limits and it hasnt allowed the kpa to go higher 105 still...

[schpenxel]

What's the formula you're using for converting EGR voltage to AFR? I'm assuming that's how you're doing it anyways..

I seem to recall having to use a different MAP channel when wanting to read a 2 bar sensor on gen 3's but I could be mistaken.

[tictakman]

Using Eds nice tutorial...he had some equation like 1/2 to 2/3rds through

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru_2M2uGSKs