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Thread: WOT timing - EB 3.5

  1. #1
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    WOT timing - EB 3.5

    How much timing at WOT are you all running on your tuned EB 3.5s? My stock 2014 SHO runs about 9-11 degrees of advance at WOT above 4000 RPM (at the dragstrip or doing WOT testing). Is anyone able to increase these values with great success? Just increasing the borderline knock table doesn't seem to have the right effect.
    Last edited by metroplex; 11-23-2016 at 07:46 PM.

  2. #2
    From what I read around 10 degrees is what seems safe for 93 octane around 16 psi.

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    Advanced Tuner 96gt4.6's Avatar
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    I have been seeing no negative KR running around 10 degrees on 18 psi with an AFR of around 11.8-12.0, and IAT temps of 110-120 degrees F, on 93 Octane.
    '17 Whipple'd S550
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    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    The IAT2 / intercooler temps are usually fairly good on the street. It's when I take it to the track and manage to go above 70 MPH at WOT, the IAT2/MCT temps start to climb quite a bit. At 55F ambient, the IAT is about 60F but the post-intercooler temps will go as high as 155F at the track.

  5. #5
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Has anyone found out how to increase spark with the EcoBoost? In the past on the modular Fords, I'd just increase the borderline knock tables as the ECU essentially finds the lowest values and uses those (along with the temp correction tables). Do I want to increase the values in the MBT tables as well?

    Here's pretty much what I see: For the 1.40 and 1.80 loads in the BKT tables, the spark values are roughly 8-10* advance. In the MBT tables, the spark values are 20-30* advance. My actual spark advance at WOT above 5000 RPM is about 7-10* advance. I can increase the BKT values for that region but it won't actually increase the final spark advance.

    This is probably very simple and I am just overlooking something.

  6. #6
    From what I have seen, you only mess with the borderline tables and the spark correction tables. I have read that you should really never touch the mbt tables.

  7. #7
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    On my daily driver tune I run 18 psi and 11.9 at 9 degrees

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    How does your STFT and actual lambda look above 5500 RPM at 18 psi? I think it is way out of efficiency above 17 psi with the GT15s

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    FYI if anyone is actually listening, just adding spark to the borderline knock tables doesn't seem to be good enough. Stock was set to about 9*-11* at WOT. I added 8 degrees for the 1.40/1.80 load and 4k+ RPM cells, but actual spark from 5000-6000 RPM maxed around 14*, still short about 3* from my target. I've been asking around as much as I can, and no one seems to have figured out how the ECU really calculates final spark (or if they know, they aren't telling). Someone told me there are other tables than borderline knock that would affect final spark (well, duh) but looking at pre-ignition, combustion pressure, and the ECT/IAT/Lambda adders still doesn't seem to account for this rather large delta.

    I then looked at the Spark Retard tab and noticed there were tables for Spark Retard limits (that go down to like -5.80 at 1.80 load) and a Knock Clip (all set to -1). I'm tempted to set that entire table to 0, but was wondering if anyone has had better luck.

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    If it's anything like a Coyote there are many limiting tables that spark will never go over. I haven't tuned an Ecoboost but I'm guessing they use the same setup as far as that goes. MBT tables along with tables like Cylinder Pressure Limit and many others can limit spark on them. See if you can log Spark Source on the Ecoboost. You should also check all the other tables to see if any are limiting your spark.

  11. #11
    Good info

  12. #12
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridenrunwv View Post
    If it's anything like a Coyote there are many limiting tables that spark will never go over. I haven't tuned an Ecoboost but I'm guessing they use the same setup as far as that goes. MBT tables along with tables like Cylinder Pressure Limit and many others can limit spark on them. See if you can log Spark Source on the Ecoboost. You should also check all the other tables to see if any are limiting your spark.
    Spark Source at WOT is "Base"
    I checked the other tables already without any luck. I have not increased MBT because those cells are already set to 30+ degrees advance at WOT. What tables need to be modified with Coyote in order to increase actual spark advance? Is there a write up online anywhere?

    Adding 8 degrees of timing in BKT results in an increase of about 3-4 degrees final advance. I can try to add more to BKT but it would be nice to actually know how all the spark settings work together.

  13. #13
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    Borderline is the base for spark. Log the different mapped point weights to see where the spark is coming from. If it's coming 50% from one table and 50% from another I could see how adding eight degrees doesn't result in an eight degree increase if it is averaging two very different numbers to get your final base spark. Here's a good test...

    Set the last couple boost rows of each table equal to what you want your WOT spark to be and see if it hits the target. Even if it is using multiple mapped points for spark calculation you will hit your desired spark that way because it will just be blending the same values.

  14. #14
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I made all 6 mapped point BKT tables about the same for the 1.40-1.80 load / 4k+ RPM cells (roughly 16*-17*) and was getting a max of 14* but I still saw 9*-11* in some regions. There doesn't seem to be a correlation.

    On the old modulars, it would basically look at MBT and BKT, then pick the lowest of the 2 (also taking into factors from the different adders), and it was easy to understand. Applying that here doesn't seem to work the same. I looked at the adders and none of the conditions (IAT, IAT2, ECT) would have activated those adders.

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I just did more testing and no matter how much more spark I add to the borderline table, it just pulls it away as knock retard or stays at 9-11* advance.

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    What if you try and modify the Octane Plug Adder ?

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    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I tried that. I even zeroed it all out. Whatever I added into BKT was essentially pulled out as knock retard.

  18. #18
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    Do you have modifiers to the limiting tables in your tune? If it's like the Coyote things like Cylinder Pressure Limit and the MBT tables have modifiers on them for things such as temperatures or AFR

  19. #19
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Yep, already checked those. Those wouldn't be impacting the spark in this manner. Are you actually successful in increasing Coyote spark? If so, what were the steps or changes you made to actually accomplish this?
    Just adding spark to Borderline Knock won't do anything, or it will all be taken off as knock retard!

  20. #20
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    Yes. I have no problem getting Coyote Mustangs to run whatever I want. Have tuned them on E85 running 30-31 with no problem. I typically make small adjustments to a few modifiers but the basic concept of getting limiters out of the way and increasing Borderline is all it takes.

    Does yours always run the exact same spark or does it very slightly? You might actually be getting knock. I commonly set MBT to something like 27 or 28 on a Coyote and the spark will just hit that and hold it. KR will be something like -3 and then just start tapering off as RPM increases and borderline gets closer to MBT.