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Thread: Tuning VVE and zone boundries

  1. #21
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    I dunno, havent used HPT in years, but this thread suggests there's discrepancies.

  2. #22
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redhardsupra View Post
    I dunno, havent used HPT in years, but this thread suggests there's discrepancies.
    I meant the Bluecat tool. What are you using now?

  3. #23
    HP Tuners Owner Keith@HPTuners's Avatar
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    The method to go from VVE->Coefficients in VCM Editor is different than the one Bluecat uses.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    I meant the Bluecat tool. What are you using now?
    Matlab with my own code

  5. #25
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith@HPTuners View Post
    The method to go from VVE->Coefficients in VCM Editor is different than the one Bluecat uses.
    I have no problem with the HPT tool, it does work differently of course, when you Calculate Coefficients it alters the existing data so if I have smoothed in my error the table changes when I apply it, which I don't like but I am sure is for a reason.

    It's hard for me to look at the blocky table so I always change the boundaries and smooth a lot with multiple error applications and can usually get it looking normal, but it is a weird process.

    Is it different from bluecat because of some issue you guys had with bluecat when you created the VVE editor? Don't get me wrong, it's super nice to have and makes editing the coefficients a possibility, otherwise I know I would be running MAF only tunes!

    Just makes the non-math wizards like me wonder, why the difference?

  6. #26
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    The built in editor does require a lot of tweaking sometimes because of how it can jack things up - these newer torque biased vehicles do not like the sudden ridges and dips in the table... Haven't done it yet, but kind of makes me want to pull a stock tune out using another software and compare the two just to see if there's any differences?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  7. #27
    HP Tuners Owner Keith@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    Is it different from bluecat because of some issue you guys had with bluecat when you created the VVE editor? Don't get me wrong, it's super nice to have and makes editing the coefficients a possibility, otherwise I know I would be running MAF only tunes!

    Just makes the non-math wizards like me wonder, why the difference?
    We've never had issue with bluecat. We were originally working with him to import his code into VCM Editor. One of our engineers just came up with a more efficient way.

    The reason for the difference is we use different methods to calculate the coefficients.
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  8. #28
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    I still use BlueCats software in hpt 3.+. Without calculating new MAP / RPM zones you are really handicapped. Adjusting boundaries manually would be OK if you could see the result without closing the VVE window and re-checking it. I've never had a problem with BlueCat's zone calculations.


    It is a extreme pain in the arse but you can carefully and manually copy/paste into bluecat's equations window. I really wish right click copy/paste would come back. I think if we are keeping score the new software has slowed pro tuners down more than it has helped. Its frustrating but what can we do the HPtuners crew seem so unwilling to listen to the pro tuner's comments. Really wish it was like 2.24 + extras instead of only what the software developers thought was important + extras.
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  9. #29
    HP Tuners Owner Keith@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Alvin, to adjust the zone boundaries, I would open the VVE table, copy it, close it.

    Then adjust your zone boundaries.

    Open the VVE table again, and paste in your previously copied table.

    We hear you about the copy/paste.. we are working on it resolving these setbacks for you guys. Believe me, it's not only about what developers think is important. I personally am constantly reading the forum looking for feedback. I talk to local tuners in person when I can. When people come up to me at the track, I always ask them about their experiences with the software and what they'd like to see. Every year at PRI I also try to get general feedback from users. All this input helps us design the software to be better for you, the tuner.

    3.x is a completely brand new platform that gives us much more flexibility than 2.x. The addition of wizards, new controllers, etc.. should be proof of how much quicker the 3.x framework allows us to release features and new products.

    We'll continue to work on it to make the user experience better.
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  10. #30
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    Not to beat on an old subject here Keith, but can it be made to where it adjust the boundaries for you? To better suite the setup without having to do all of this?

    I'm not going to argue that 3.x isn't better, because for a lot of things especially with the most recent release of 3.4 which I currently personally like - just some minor things seemed to work better or be laid out better in 2.24... Compared to nearly all of the other tuning software's I use - HP is by far the best...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  11. #31
    HP Tuners Owner Keith@HPTuners's Avatar
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    2.24 didn't even have a built in Virtual VE wizard.

    I doubt we'll be adding zone boundary editing in the VVE Wizard. It's so easy to change the zone boundaries now.
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  12. #32
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    The problem isn't changing them, the problem is changing them in the correct way so that you get the smoothest "VE" surface after coefficients are calculated. Bluecat's did a good job of selecting the boundaries for you automatically so they would best fit to the "VE" table you wanted. Without that it's pretty much guess and check. Change boundaries, paste VE, calculate coefficients, see how close it is. Change boundaries again, paste, calculate again, check. Change, paste, check until you get something you're OK with. Bluecat's did that automatically which was nice.

    I think we're all very thankful that VVE editor is built in now, but it can sometimes be tough to get the table just right when trying to tweak boundaries to best suit the the table (and whatever background math goes into calculating the coefficients)
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  13. #33
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    Sorry - should have better clarified - but basically what he and others have said about the boundaries

    The scanner pid selection is the only thing I don't really like about any of the new 3.x's... 2.24 basically just gave you your choices that pertained to just that vehicle or gen of vehicle - 3.x is starting to get like sct where you have lots of choices and they may or may not even work on that vehicle... Didn't figure it was on subject, so didn't post anything about this earlier when I was referring to some things being better in 2.24...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
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  14. #34
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    When you add channels in 3.x, it will only show supported channels, same as 2.24.

    When you add channel backings to your gauge/graph/chart controls, it will show all parameters, just like 2.24. The difference is, 3.x lets you filter and show only supported parameters, unlike 2.24.
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  15. #35
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    Greg, are you hitting the "show only parameters backed by channels" button when selecting a parameter? That will filter out anything you can't use given your current channel config

    Now if I could only talk Keith into making it "on" by default

  16. #36
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    Well, mine loads a lot of unsupported channels or what I assume are unsupported channels, so maybe I just need to send that into support... They actually show up in the channels too so it's not like they're just there and then blank out like most unsupported channels will - they just don't show any data... AND then the graphs min/max display settings still don't work - only the average one...

    Prime example below since this is a gen 5 section - channels present - just don't show data...

    Back on subject now - is there any chance now of doing the auto boundary zone setup in the future?
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    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  17. #37
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    Nope, I've just been connecting and then polling for supported channels - if they're not supported - this usually just "blanks" them out of the channel listing for any you had in there for other like gen vehicles... I thought the parameter backed by channels was only for setting up the graphs not the channels themselves?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  18. #38
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    You're right, we're talking about two different things--you're talking about the list of channels that are being logged, I'm talking about when you try to use what you're logging in a graph/chart/gauge

    So, never mind

  19. #39
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    I think the ideal solution would be to come up with a set of known good zone boundaries for various common applications.

    Depending on the scenario, different parts of the VE table should have more resolution and other parts should have less resolution.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith@HPTuners View Post
    Alvin, to adjust the zone boundaries, I would open the VVE table, copy it, close it.

    Then adjust your zone boundaries.

    Open the VVE table again, and paste in your previously copied table.

    We hear you about the copy/paste.. we are working on it resolving these setbacks for you guys. Believe me, it's not only about what developers think is important. I personally am constantly reading the forum looking for feedback. I talk to local tuners in person when I can. When people come up to me at the track, I always ask them about their experiences with the software and what they'd like to see. Every year at PRI I also try to get general feedback from users. All this input helps us design the software to be better for you, the tuner.

    3.x is a completely brand new platform that gives us much more flexibility than 2.x. The addition of wizards, new controllers, etc.. should be proof of how much quicker the 3.x framework allows us to release features and new products.

    We'll continue to work on it to make the user experience better.

    Thanks Kieth, I mentioned...


    Adjusting boundaries manually would be OK if you could see the result without closing the VVE window and re-checking it.
    What I mean by that is exactly what you recommended but not being how it changes the table in real time is a pretty bad handicap. Could you consider changing the zone boundaries while the table is up and editable to see how the new boundaries look without closing and re opening the window?


    Thanks again!
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