Tip in Knock

[Molch]

Hey guys, I'm getting tip in knock almost every time I accelerate hard. I have changed OL settings to ensure its nothing to do with OL delays. i found there is a Tip in retard table in hptuners but it looks like its mapped incorrectly as it has strange values in the cells.

Any ideas or pointers?

[JETURBO]

And you know 100% it's a real KR event by using an aftermarket Knock detection device ????

Flogging a dead horse here ladies

[Molch]

And you know 100% it's a real KR event by using an aftermarket Knock detection device ????

Flogging a dead horse here ladies

Nope no detection advice, I am assuming based on the observations that these is not real knock events. I have come to realise its probably the "tip in retard" which is probably reducing the timing. I was hoping to get some general opinions on how you guys go about dealing with this. I see the following as potential options.

a.) Do you just disabled tip in using the RPM values?
b.) Do you tune the airmass values to a higher number?
c.) Do you have access to modify the tip in retard table?
d.) Do you just ignore?
3.) None of the above?

[IH8TOADS]

That's not tip-in spark retard, that's knock retard so don't worry about the tip-in tables in this instance.

What Ron fuel you using. Pull a few degrees out across the board and see if the amount of retard is the same. BF or FG? The fuel sensor models aren't to bad stock.

[Molch]

That's not tip-in spark retard, that's knock retard so don't worry about the tip-in tables in this instance.

What Ron fuel you using. Pull a few degrees out across the board and see if the amount of retard is the same. BF or FG? The fuel sensor models aren't to bad stock.

Thanks for the tips IH8TOADs. Wondering, How can you tell the difference?

I am using fresh 98 RON from BP and it happens almost every time I stab the accelerator. I have previously pulled timing but i don't remember if it helped at all so I'll try it again. I'm currently running pretty much stock timing below 2250rpm so I'll try pulling 2* from most of the cells.

I also tried disabling tip in spark reduction and its still happening.

[IH8TOADS]

Tip-in spark reduction is in place because the airmass will change at a rate faster than a t-map can sense. So it's there to prevent knock on a tip-in since fuel and desired spark advance won't respond quick enough for the change in airmass.

Tip-in spark reduction shows as a significant drop in the spark advance DRM during a tip-in. You have the knock retard DRM active throughout the entire pull with the throttle open. What model car is it?

[Molch]

yep ok cool, thats describes what I thought would happen, but I'm not sure what the recovery rate is for tip-in spark reduction as i just assumed it was staying dropped because it was waiting for some calculation to be met.

Its a 2011 FG g6e.

[Molch]

Tried taking out heaps of timing and still getting the symptoms so starting to think its something other than knock. Im getting low on fuel so going to change over to e85 with the same timing and see if the symptoms persist.

Current timing table below:

[IH8TOADS]

Timing map looks good. Turn the knock sensors off and listen for knock. Pending your list of mods, you probably need to dumb the sensors down a bit. Your boost control calibration needs work. Wastegate DC is jumping around.

[Molch]

thanks ih8toads for that.

So I tested out a basic e85 tune and still see the issue. Except this time i can see the spark source is torque control and torque source is oscillation. So this appears to be pulling up to 2.5 degrees via torque control.

I am going to set Torque Management -> General -> Spark torque Ratio limit -> "Tipin Osc" to 1.00 to disable spark retard torque reduction. Is this usually done and could I see any unwanted side affects?

[IH8TOADS]

There is a scalar for tip in oscillation, but iirc HP doesn't have it mapped yet. Regardless, it's the knock retard DRM and hence the retard and recovery that need to be zero'd to confirm that's what it is (and it will be) and then you need to work on the source of knock or the knock detection calibration.

[Molch]

so today I disabled the knock sensors under General Knock Sensor and the KR dissapeared.

Then I turned it back on and set the Knock Sensor Gain to 70% the original value on all cylinders and the KR re-appeared.

So I Set all cylinders knock gain values to 0 and the KR still appears.

What else can be done to try and tune this out of the KR?

[Yortt]

so today I disabled the knock sensors under General Knock Sensor and the KR dissapeared.

Then I turned it back on and set the Knock Sensor Gain to 70% the original value on all cylinders and the KR re-appeared.

So I Set all cylinders knock gain values to 0 and the KR still appears.

What else can be done to try and tune this out of the KR?

I have been through the exact same process with my XR6T and through the process of elimination as you have done I have ended up unable to correct it. I can only conclude it is in the scan tool calibration given the knock trace behavior, however after saying that I have a G6 on LPG which had no knock sensors from the factory I fitted two and turned them on in the tune and the knock scan worked flawlessly.

This only leaves the probability it is in the scan software calibration and appears to vary depending on the operating system version after having similar issues with several other vehicles.

[Molch]

I made some possible progress yesterday. I Set the offset window to 0 and the KR almost compleltly disappeared. Then I set cyl 1 & 2 offset window to the original numbers and it came back instantly, so I set everything back to 0 and kr was gone again. I think I can also replicate it with the car standing still so going to do some more testing and playing with offset windows to see what results I can get. I read the ford knock detection patent but didn't really get a good understanding of how he system works. So going to do some trial and error but if anyone has advice or can help me better. Understand how the settings impact each other and overall knock retard that would be great.

I'm going to try a couple of tactics:

1.) use the bf offset window strategies and see the results
2.) use the FG standard strategy but set below 2500rpm a lower value to see if I can eliminate most of the knock KR
3.) set each cylinder to 0 to see if it's a particular cylinder picking u p the noise
4.) do some stand still testing with everything on and try and find the actual source of noise. I suspect it's my exhaust or intake knocking but will also heck engine mounts, aircon, etc etc.

[Grant LS1]

Did you do a compare of a typhoon setup Vs standard of the same year/model/tansmission etc & compare what they did to tune knock sensors as the typhoon have them dialled in better as more time is spent on calibration from FPR.

[Yortt]

I changed my complete exhaust, changed knock sensors, changed my engine mounts (new genuine factory), change intake back to standard, checked everything on the engine transmission nothing lose, checked induction pipes were not touching anything under engine torque, used F6 and xr6t knock sensor settings made no difference.
I change knock sensor gain and knock sensor window to other FG operating systems there did not appear to be any difference. I assume setting the offset window to 0 creates no window effectively turning it off.

[turbotrana]

Just had a skim read of the Patent US 6,945,229 B1. The knock calculation includes data from " ionization detection ignition coils" !!!!

[Yortt]

Given our falcons use vibration-based knock sensor technology I would say "ionization detection ignition coils" are being used in our vehicles

[Molch]

I changed my complete exhaust, changed knock sensors, changed my engine mounts (new genuine factory), change intake back to standard, checked everything on the engine transmission nothing lose, checked induction pipes were not touching anything under engine torque, used F6 and xr6t knock sensor settings made no difference.
I change knock sensor gain and knock sensor window to other FG operating systems there did not appear to be any difference. I assume setting the offset window to 0 creates no window effectively turning it off.

what valve springs were you running? I was doing some testing in the driveway today and noticed the valvetrain noise more then ever as i had my head under the bonnet listening for noise. I am running the crow cam valve springs with retainers. VTKBA6T-24

Anyway the results of the testing was adjusting the offset window between 0-2500 by 50% reduction I was able to reduce driveway KR (Fake knock from a quick throttle stab).

[Yortt]

what valve springs were you running? I was doing some testing in the driveway today and noticed the valvetrain noise more then ever as i had my head under the bonnet listening for noise. I am running the crow cam valve springs with retainers. VTKBA6T-24

Anyway the results of the testing was adjusting the offset window between 0-2500 by 50% reduction I was able to reduce driveway KR (Fake knock from a quick throttle stab).

I am running standard valve springs (65000ks standard turbo maximum boost) valve train noise is very quiet would not expect that to be an issue in my case. I did reduce the offset window at one stage and it seemed to make no difference however not to the 50% level I will give it a try, thanks for the post.