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Thread: Mpfi intake swap vortec 5.7

  1. #41
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    If the engine ran that well without proper valve spring control and inadequate preload, I can only imaging how it will run once its running correctly.

    I also made the mistake of using a 5qt pan with a 4qt windage tray. The 4 qt pan has a baffle plate incorperated into it and the 5 qt does not. I happened to notice a random 1 ton van engine laying around the scrapyard with a longer windage tray. The longer windage tray covers the gap between the #2 and #3 main bearing cap that I had wide open in my engine. So I think I also found why my oil pressure had been dropping under sustained higher rpm. Probably had alot of oil wrapped up in the crank and not down at the pickup. So better valve control and reduced windage should really wake this thing up even with the smaller cam.

  2. #42
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    I wish I had an acceleration video of it running with the Lunati cam and gears. This is a comparison of the B82 vs 10.5" LOW STR 2,600. The GM B82 had a much higher STR. You could powerbrake the thing with the 3.73 G80 rear end and break the rear tires loose at 1/2 throttle. The low str thing just stalled up a few hundred rpm higher and would not break them loose even full throttle. The stock GM converter would sometimes break both tires loose from a stop with no brake stall.

    Stock GM B82 1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpPSgILR6wc

    Stock GM B82 2
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtn58oN-snM

    2,600 10.5" (The converter alone made me drastically change the AE and Timing down low. Nasty lean pop on the initial throttle opening)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNyr_Z6Q_ck

    After fixing the lean transition and goving it a bit more timing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc-DZDdjc7o

    I felt it ran pretty well for a 300 hp crank rated setup with a 4L85E and 3.73s in a 6,200 lbs brick of a van.

  3. #43
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    Yeah not bad at all for a van I'm pretty much convinced that's the converter I'll use should ever go clutch less.

  4. #44
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    I have considered a Yank Truck Thruster 2,600 because the engine loves the added stall speed. However the Yank has something like a 2.6 STR compared to the B82s 2.2. The Pheonix converter felt like it had a 1.5 STR, ZERO snap off the line. Because it was lighter the engine would jump up to 2,600 rpm and it just felt like a snail until it started rolling. Would have been a great converter for a lightweight F-car.

  5. #45
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    I wonder how the yank would react in your 6000+lb situation. The numbers show it will react like the b82 but will it honestly? Ive heard the 2600 yanks are nothing more than a worked over ttailblazer converter. Well now its time to get this thread back on track I should be starting up the truck tonight just finishing it up after work.
    Last edited by Oleblu; 05-22-2017 at 03:25 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleblu View Post
    I wonder how the yank would react in your 6000+lb situation. The numbers show it will react like the b82 but will it honestly? Ive heard the 2600 yanks are nothing more than a worked over ttailblazer converter. Well now its time to get this thread back on track I should be starting up the truck tonight just finishing it up after work.
    Sounds fun! I would disable dynamic air calibration and run off the MAF only for startup tuning. Once you get the idle air volume and timing mapping where you want it then dial in the VE. To disable the MAP based Dynamic air blend move the value from the ~4,400 rpm it is stock down to 200 rpm.

  7. #47
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    I had two startup tunes one maf only and one CL speed density. I'm currently running in speed density. I'm going to switch to maf only in the morning. I literally just came in from the first test drive. And I must say it pulls like a train after 3,000. I raised my Rev limiter to 6,200 and made a pull in second up to 6,000 and It was still pulling hard. Afr's were in the mid high 12's I'll get some time to tune it tomorrow to and from work. Once I get the Maf and ve dialed in I think it'll feel a little more healthy under 3,000. Then I'll work on the timing map for now I feel like my ignition timing is decent at the moment. After all that I'll play with EOIT a bit, re-tune the airflow tables and hand smooth it through individual cells to dial it in again.
    Last edited by Oleblu; 05-22-2017 at 08:37 PM.

  8. #48
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    Got some tuning done today I feel like i have gotten a decent start on it. here is a log of me driving around in mexico getting some pulls done.

    17-05-23 18-00-23.hpl

    here is the current working tune in progress Maf only closed loop.

    oleblu cam swap Maf only tune 3.hpt

    I know this truck is not exaclty what you would call a fast truck. But im pleasantly surprised with how it feels. especially for a 170,000 mile daily commuter to work and home. if i were to guess I would say it might be able to get into the 14.00's with traction and some decent density altitude.

  9. #49
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    I say you should be able to have both. I noticed a couple of things. First I don't know what kind of idle characteristics you get out of that cam but a lot of times when I do a cam swap I will relax the idle speed over and underspeed correction tables. Here are yours..



    I will change them so that there is no timing pulled or given for 0 or 25 rpm so there is a 50 rpm window of freeplay. Then I will have the timming pulled or given 2 degrees for the next 3 cells, then 4 degrees for the next 3 cells. to not just relax how much timing it is taking or giving for but also the rate at which it is pulling that timing. If done right, instead of your idle being an oscilation you will get to hear what the cam is doing. I also noticed something about your ve table..



    I can promise you that your motor is not at it's most efficient at 7500rpm and wide open throttle. I know we all wish it could be that way, but it can't be. However we can almost build and certainly shape a ve table with just good sound logic. First we must remember that engines are most efficient usually right before they make the most power. So if we know or can find out roughly where the engine is making it's power than we can use this logic to determine where the high spot on the ve table should be. Which should probably be somewhere south of 6k. Aside from that, man that is one smooth looking table and good job for that. The last thing I wanted to discuss with you was your power enrichment..



    That's rich. And the ramp in rate is a lot also. Maybe 1.5 would be a better ramp in rate and maybe shooting for the low to mid 13's would do you better. Of course you should make sure you have a really good tune first and absolutely no detonation anywhere but you can even get away a touch over 13.5 comfortably. And the thing will just keep making more power all the way up until detonation. Because the less fuel that is in the cylinder means the more air. And that's what makes the power.

  10. #50
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    Thanks for the smooth compliment lol. That ve table was a starter table for the first start up to make sure it was just about piss rich. Ill never spin this engine over 6400. everything above that is just for the sake of keeping the linear motion in the table. As for the power enrich EQ, Man anything above 13.2 AFR seems so lean to me.

    This engine has a static compression of 10.37:1 with factory unmolested IRON vortec heads flat milled .035 and sporting ls6 valve springs. installed at 1.75" probably just at or around 105-108 lbs on the seat closed. Dynamic compression came up at 8.16:1 with this cam. quench came out to .041-.042 with the pistons avg. .026 in the hole, using .015 compressed fel pro 1094 head gaskets. I'm a little afraid of some serious detonation as Im only able to get 90 oct E-10 in this area. I really feel like peak right now is about 5600-5700 the rev limiter is set at 6200 right now and it definitely pulls hard to that. i'm just shitting a brick spinning it much past that. this being a factory unbalanced bottom end, i'd rather be safe.

    The cam has a mild lope but im not really into all that make your cam lope so nasty everyone stares at you sound. I like to try to keep it tame and steady, those under over settings are getting me within 25-35 rpm err. for the most part you can hardly tell it has a cam unless you have a trained ear. which i'm happy with considering it does have 54.5* overlap. All that being said this is still the beginning stages of the tune as I only get a couple hours a day to tinker. trying to tune in between working on the stuff in the shop makes it hard to tune your personal vehicles. I finally got my Maf trims under -10% idle and above, moved to the VE table today and started dialing it in under -3% above idle. After everything is dialed in the way I want it this truck will run a dynamic tune probably cutting to maf only after 3800 rpm.

  11. #51
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    Here is my proposal for your ve table. I am sure it will not look exactly like that but I think that is the general shape it should be in..


  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoWiz View Post
    I say you should be able to have both. I noticed a couple of things. First I don't know what kind of idle characteristics you get out of that cam but a lot of times when I do a cam swap I will relax the idle speed over and underspeed correction tables. Here are yours..



    I will change them so that there is no timing pulled or given for 0 or 25 rpm so there is a 50 rpm window of freeplay. Then I will have the timming pulled or given 2 degrees for the next 3 cells, then 4 degrees for the next 3 cells. to not just relax how much timing it is taking or giving for but also the rate at which it is pulling that timing. If done right, instead of your idle being an oscilation you will get to hear what the cam is doing. I also noticed something about your ve table..



    I can promise you that your motor is not at it's most efficient at 7500rpm and wide open throttle. I know we all wish it could be that way, but it can't be. However we can almost build and certainly shape a ve table with just good sound logic. First we must remember that engines are most efficient usually right before they make the most power. So if we know or can find out roughly where the engine is making it's power than we can use this logic to determine where the high spot on the ve table should be. Which should probably be somewhere south of 6k. Aside from that, man that is one smooth looking table and good job for that. The last thing I wanted to discuss with you was your power enrichment..



    That's rich. And the ramp in rate is a lot also. Maybe 1.5 would be a better ramp in rate and maybe shooting for the low to mid 13's would do you better. Of course you should make sure you have a really good tune first and absolutely no detonation anywhere but you can even get away a touch over 13.5 comfortably. And the thing will just keep making more power all the way up until detonation. Because the less fuel that is in the cylinder means the more air. And that's what makes the power.
    I run the same PE ramp on my 350. It loves being in PE the second you jump on it. These 350s really do not like running leaner than 12.5:1 on this crappy E10 fuel we have. I have tuned these 350s time and time again, the all like 12:1 @ peak torque, 12.6 @ peak HP and a relatively flat timing table that jumps up quickly to 24-26? and maxs out at 30-32?. If you run them too lean they will spark knock way before MBT and you will lose torque.

  13. #53
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    This is what I ran in a 1999 Suburban with a F-car LT1 cam, ported intake base, 70mm throttle body and long tube headers into a dual 2.25" exhaust. S10 converter stalled 2,800 rpm behind the engine and with the 3.73 G80 of the suburban it was a fun truck.


  14. #54
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    It ran really well fwiw...I had to leave alot of torque management in place and added to the upshift torque management. At WOT I was shifting 1-2 and 2-3 a 40% torque reduction to keep the stupid GM Serta rebuilt 60E from flaring.

    0-80 on an uphill ramp
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdyu501Z4Y

  15. #55
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    our timing maps are similar but i hiked up the cruise and off throttle timing a ton. at wot we are within 1.5* of each other for the most part. ill be posting up a speed density tune later today to compare with the original posted tunes, and autowiz's slightly revised VE table. i have mainly been focusing on part throttle drive-ability no so much bothered with wot as that usually only takes like 5 good steady streams of data to sort out.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleblu View Post
    our timing maps are similar but i hiked up the cruise and off throttle timing a ton. at wot we are within 1.5* of each other for the most part. ill be posting up a speed density tune later today to compare with the original posted tunes, and autowiz's slightly revised VE table. i have mainly been focusing on part throttle drive-ability no so much bothered with wot as that usually only takes like 5 good steady streams of data to sort out.
    You might take a look and see what your maximum timing limit is set at. I believe they were set at 35* on a stock L31 van tune. With the stock distributer you are mechanically limited to about 42* before the spark starts misfiring to the previous cylinder, I usually ran no more than 40* working with the distributor setups. On my 24x conversion I run up to 48* BTDC at very light load cruise.

    I know the PE looks leaner on this one, but I am running 14.1:1 stoich to match the E10 10% ethanol fuel in use. I do run 93 octane with this timing map. I do not see spark knock even pulling my 6,000 lbs travel trailer.


  17. #57
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    I have maximum timing raised to 55* I have really only noticed it cross firing commanding above 50* cruising down the highway. I was always curious how far it could physically advance the ignition. Good to know.

  18. #58
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    Well i was going to post up my revised VE tune the other day but I didn't get a chance to. I ended up having a little fun at the lake this weekend. so here is the 6th adjustment to the ve table using STFT only. oleblu cam swap SD closed loop tune 6.hpt.

    Just about done messing with the VE table then going to swap to maf only sometime this week after i feel comfortable with it. sometime coming soon im going to redo the intake piping and relocate my IAT sensor closer to the filter. Right now i am having terrible IAT heat soak. which is contributing to a part throttle kr issue.

  19. #59
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    Well being happy enough with my VE table I moved to Maf only. I managed to get my idle bang on, very happy with that as i couldn't get the VE table under -5% in the idle area's. still trying to weasel the most torque out of the old girl, but i feel like its just about as good as its going to get until i change my intake piping.

    Here is the Maf only tune im working on currently. oleblu cam swap MAF closed loop 2.hpt Ill attach a dynamic tune here in the future.

    Im very pleased with the way the truck feels after mostly finalizing the WOT tuning the only real complaint I have is the nv3500 doesnt much like being shifted above 5600 1-2. i feel like i can shift 2-3 and 3-4 faster than 1-2. To save my synchro's I have been slow shifting the piss out of it. Which just makes me sad cause Iv'e always been the guy that could shift just a little faster than most. I have really been entertaining the Idea of a t56 swap, then again I have a perfectly good 4l80 out back thats been needing a new home. decisions decisions I guess im done blathering for now.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oleblu View Post
    Well being happy enough with my VE table I moved to Maf only. I managed to get my idle bang on, very happy with that as i couldn't get the VE table under -5% in the idle area's. still trying to weasel the most torque out of the old girl, but i feel like its just about as good as its going to get until i change my intake piping.

    Here is the Maf only tune im working on currently. oleblu cam swap MAF closed loop 2.hpt Ill attach a dynamic tune here in the future.

    Im very pleased with the way the truck feels after mostly finalizing the WOT tuning the only real complaint I have is the nv3500 doesnt much like being shifted above 5600 1-2. i feel like i can shift 2-3 and 3-4 faster than 1-2. To save my synchro's I have been slow shifting the piss out of it. Which just makes me sad cause Iv'e always been the guy that could shift just a little faster than most. I have really been entertaining the Idea of a t56 swap, then again I have a perfectly good 4l80 out back thats been needing a new home. decisions decisions I guess im done blathering for now.
    If it is only running 5% off the mark and it is on the rich side, I would leave it alone. Better to be removing fuel when you go into PE rather than adding fuel. If you are adding fuel it will keep adding that percentage when you go into PE. You also never know when your fuel quality and its ethanol quantity may be a little higher. I usually shoot for slight negative trims. -2 to -8% or so. They often vary a bit with engine temp and keeping it on the rich side seems to help throttle response.