Injection Timing Assistance Requested

[mowton]

Pretty sure that it's only used during idle and cruise. Chris said that he couldn't confirm for sure, but I've had pretty decent luck with the tool so far.

I agree, the tool is great. I love the graphing that gives you a physical graphic depicting where all the events occur. I have to cut and paste the events in my chart by hand. Great for seeing your results and making fine adjustments. I even learrned a few new Excel tricks from it :-)

I just think that including the makeup pulse in both the EOIT and SOIT calculations is a double dip. You either tell the calculations the EOIT is 30 degrees earlier or you calculate the EOIT without it and back calculate the SOIT 30 degrees earlier based on a straight up EOIT.

I added an IPW vs RPM Graph to my scanner and copy and paste that data during a ramp run into the tool. Even added it to my Abacus based tool :-)

Ed M

[07GTS]

yea the makeup should be added to advance SOIT only same as the ECT or RPM table would, im pretty sure it has an affect at idle but do u reckon its more of a steady state makeup (idle or cruise ect) and not used durin throttle applications or wot runs..?

[NJ_Phil]

I just think that including the makeup pulse in both the EOIT and SOIT calculations is a double dip. You either tell the calculations the EOIT is 30 degrees earlier or you calculate the EOIT without it and back calculate the SOIT 30 degrees earlier based on a straight up EOIT.
Ed M

I agree with this. By double dipping, the injection window is simply retarded, exactly the same as Normal ECT window adjustments. I would think EOIT should stay fixed and Makup applied only to SOIT so makup pulses occur within the new expanded window...not sure if applied after SOIT or before EOIT.

[GHuggins]

I should have read what y'all were talking about in more detail - I thought you were talking about the time to cylinder numbers - yes the makeup is only applied to soit and I thought this was corrected in one of the later versions - guess it might have been added back? I would say to just ignore the part that's added to eoi if that's possible, but don't guess it is...

Didn't even think about plotting an average IPW in the scanner - guess it's time to add a new table

[07GTS]

aah yea i see it now its added to soit and before eoit which is essentially the same thing, if u knew how to change it i would but i have no clue with these excel spreadsheets, i think the makeup in the input values is ok but there is another one in the background that needs removing ?

[NJ_Phil]

I'm a EE and willing to put a scope on one of the injectors to verify the timing on the spreadsheet but can't figure a way to trigger the scope.
I can trigger off TDC from the crank sensor but then I have to fix the RPM to know where the injection window in relation to the valves and any variation in RPM varies the injection window on the scope,
Ideally a trigger off the cam sensor index, then count additional pulses to a known valve open point, but the index is just a shorter pulse compared to the others. Not trivial doing that

[NJ_Phil]

aah yea i see it now its added to soit and before eoit which is essentially the same thing, if u knew how to change it i would but i have no clue with these excel spreadsheets

I believe incorporating makup into the sheet is moot. The purpose of the sheet is to graphically display timing based on boundry settings and incorporating whatever voodoo the ECM is doing with makup is irrevalent.

IMO

[07GTS]

I believe incorporating makup into the sheet is moot. The purpose of the sheet is to graphically display timing based on boundry settings and incorporating whatever voodoo the ECM is doing with makup is irrevalent.

IMO

only reason i like makeup is with my cam events the stock eoit settings are still after evc so i shouldnt have an issue but i have to delay it another 30 deg to stop fuel out exhaust so it much be in use at idle, i also started to lower the makeup 30 deg and when i got around 10 deg or lower i have strange fueling so i changed it back and was good again, i dont know what it does exactly but it does something

[07GTS]

simple fix is just set makeup to 30 up to 1024rpm then to zero after that

[mowton]

Yes, I basically deleted the element from the EOIT calculation and left it in the SOIT calculation in the Table tab and use the value on the Input tab to set the desired degrees. Normally above 3000 rpm I set it o 0.

To simplify the IPW input, I generated a new graph (IPW vs RPM) and put a place on the input tab to copy and paste it in just for reference.

I really like the graphic view of the events...much easier to use than my manual setup.

Thanks Scott and the rest of the contributors for a great tool.

Ed M

[LittleRedRacer]

I can't begin to tell you all how helpful this thread has been. This has pretty much solved most of my lingering issues that have been pissing me off for some time now. Most notable was my idle. My AFR was all over the place and I had an irritating stumble off idle when cold. Right now, with the injection timing in the attached spreadsheet, my STFT's are the flattest I've seen them since my car was stock. That being said, I've only scanned the car under light throttle with this calibration and I'd really appreciate someone taking a look to make sure I did it right. I'm running a boosted application, but I targeted my EOIT to be at IVO peak. I may move it further out after I scan it a few more times at WOT assuming I'm on the right track.

Just a little bit about my application... This is an 09.5 Pontiac G8. Kooks Mid-Length headers into Corsa exhaust. TVS2300 overdriven with max boost around 14.5 PSI. ID850 injectors. 269/282/115 +3 @ .006 and 219/230/115 +3 @.05. Valve lift is .606 INT .608 EXH.

INJECTOR TIMING TOOL GEN IV - FRCv21 G8.xlsx

[GHuggins]

I can't begin to tell you all how helpful this thread has been. This has pretty much solved most of my lingering issues that have been pissing me off for some time now. Most notable was my idle. My AFR was all over the place and I had an irritating stumble off idle when cold. Right now, with the injection timing in the attached spreadsheet, my STFT's are the flattest I've seen them since my car was stock. That being said, I've only scanned the car under light throttle with this calibration and I'd really appreciate someone taking a look to make sure I did it right. I'm running a boosted application, but I targeted my EOIT to be at IVO peak. I may move it further out after I scan it a few more times at WOT assuming I'm on the right track.

Just a little bit about my application... This is an 09.5 Pontiac G8. Kooks Mid-Length headers into Corsa exhaust. TVS2300 overdriven with max boost around 14.5 PSI. ID850 injectors. 269/282/115 +3 @ .006 and 219/230/115 +3 @.05. Valve lift is .606 INT .608 EXH.

INJECTOR TIMING TOOL GEN IV - FRCv21 G8.xlsx

Might want to put the dotted red line more where the solid red line is from idle to 5000 rpms. Looked good for the rest especially with a blower...

[LittleRedRacer]

Might want to put the dotted red line more where the solid red line is from idle to 5000 rpms. Looked good for the rest especially with a blower...

Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated.

[gmtech16450yz]

Ok smart guys, look at these images for me please!

You guys know I'm no rookie, but this spreadsheet and numbers stuff isn't my thing. I'm more of a "seat of the pants" kind of guy! I'm not even positive I've inputted the numbers right for my cam, but the only differences in the settings from these three screenshots is the injection Boundary, ECT and RPM values in the tunes. Which one looks like it's "right"? One of them is producing a lot of fuel smell at idle, I know that. One is bone stock, one is what the guy who spec'd my cam told me to run and the other is my seat of the pants trial and error tuning. (lol) I'm only looking at idle right now.

Can you guys tell me anything from just this info? Thanks!

edit- Cam specs are .226/.234 @ .050 LSA is 114 advance is +4
events are IVO 3, IVC 43 EVO 55 EVC -1
ICL 110 ECL 118
Overlap 2
I was told .006 numbers were 279/287.
Engine is otherwise stock LS3

[07GTS]

did u use the .006 specs for the input duration..? it cam up with 55 deg overlap in my check at .006 , there can be a big difference from .050 to .006 the middle pic would prob suit better and once u change to the 006 specs u will see the others still too close to the evc

[GHuggins]

^^^ What I was also wondering John...

[gmtech16450yz]

Yeah that was where I couldn't figure out how to get the cam inputs right in the spreadsheet. I only have event timing values for .050 specs. Isn't the tool supposed to autocalculate the event timing when you just put in the 279/287 .006 numbers? Like I said, I'm no expert on spreadsheets! The event timing in the cam input window does have the wrong values for .006 but I don't know the .006 event timing values for my cam.

Anyway, aside from my not using the tool properly, (lol) the 3 screenshots are still comparing apples to apples because they all have the same input values, just different Boundary, ECT and RPM settings. So yeah, I thought the middle image looked the best of the 3 also. The first one is bone stock, the second one is my "seat of the pants" tuning and the 3rd one is what the tuner that spec'd my cam said to use. I had been running my settings (the middle images) for awhile and it seemed to run ok. I put the tuner's values in and it needed more airflow to idle properly and definitely had exhaust smell at idle like the stock settings did.

So am I right in my conclusion that what I came up with looks like it's at least in the right direction? As far as idle only, stock in my tune is...

Boundary- 520
ECT- 110
RPM- 0
(this is what's in the first screenshot I posted)

What I came up with on my own...

Boundary- 540
ECT- 90
RPM- 0
(this is what's in the second screenshot I posted)

What the guy that spec'd the cam suggested-

Boundary- 520
ECT- 105
RPM- 11
(this is what's in the third screenshot I posted)



Thanks again guys!

[07GTS]

the spreadsheet is designed for the .006 specs if u can enter your 279 286 and then just the 114 +4 it will work fine the lift dosnt have to be super accurate cos the valve open/close points are there which is the main thing, yea u have the right idea i usually start with the boundary all 520 then rpm all zeroed then lower the ECT until the fuel stops out the exhaust which for yours will be 80-90 as u have found, then use the boundary as the rpm increase to adjust it from there increase boundary as u need too to delay it more as rpm go up, i also use my idle PW and little over cruise PW for the idle to 2500rpm then after that i increase the PW a bit for mostly hard accel or WOT from then on

[Paz]

i usually start with the boundary all 520 then rpm all zeroed then lower the ECT until the fuel stops out the exhaust which for yours will be 80-90 as u have found, then use the boundary as the rpm increase to adjust it from there increase boundary as u need too to delay it more as rpm go up, i also use my idle PW and little over cruise PW for the idle to 2500rpm then after that i increase the PW a bit for mostly hard accel or WOT from then on

Noob question GTS, you do the bold bit actually adjusting tune in car and smelling exhaust yes, taking note of WB?

[07GTS]

yea i mostly look at the trims or WB error when it stops going richer then u are getting the most fuel in the chamber so u can then take some fuel out of the VE/MAF in the idle area and it should be good, i also have the ECT all the same since u still have overlap when cold and it can help get fuel in for cold starts also but if u want u can still have a little on the intake valve before it opens if it helps when cold