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Thread: Injection Timing Assistance Requested

  1. #41
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Do the cross hairs open and close to represent soi and eoi? That would actually be nice if done that way...

    Also you might want to remove the ppv suggestion - as pointed out - that will never be possible unless your running huge injectors and that will change all of this once again - we can get into that too if you like, but for now this is good Didn't look at your numbers yet, but the general slope looks good...
    The PPV applies at idle and very low RPMs, the intake valve is open during SOI and EOI. This is the ONLY time PPV has any relevance at all.

    Not sure why injection is an X on those sheets, seems like it could just be a green line.

  2. #42
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    The mid and high are the same thing BUT for mid - you actually want to target the "middle" - this is just for regular rpm free revving sake (lower gears being strung out)
    Not really sure what you're saying here. I'll try:

    You have had good results setting the same values from 2500 to 6500

    Target the middle - no idea what you mean

    Regular RPM free revving - ??

    Lower gears strung out - ??

    :-)

  3. #43
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    To better elaborate - high rpm - more pulsewidth - ealier soi... You still have to keep soi away from it's previous eoi... This is hard coded in the ecm, so your looking to push eoi back as far as you can at higher rpms... Again going back to the perfect raw to vaporized fuel ratio...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
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  4. #44
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    mid rpm areas - this is your typical highway speed cruising areas - your after economy as much as anything - you can actually lose 10mpg going too far back in the mid rpm area

    Gears strung out - light throttle - revving high - goes back to too much raw fuel in the cylinder - rpm and velocity will make up for it some, but not entirely
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  5. #45
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    The mid and high are the same thing - you just used different words BUT for mid - you actually want to target the "middle" - this is just for regular rpm free revving sake (lower gears being strung out)
    Target the middle of what??

    What is regular rpm free revving??

    What does it mean to have "lower gears strung out?"

    I'm being serious, I have no idea what you are saying.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottt28 View Post
    I've updated the spreadsheet a little bit. Here's a screenshot. Full files using my cam specs and tune/log information attached. GHuggins/Schpenxel/Mowton... I would appreciate it if you found time to comment.

    Attachment 66691

    Agreed. There is no such thing as "one size fits all" when it comes to tunes. The spreadsheet is just a tool to try to show what's happening. I'm not going to include a lengthy disclaimer here. Anybody reading this has to use his/her own judgment on the tools and/or the suggestions.

    Here's a what my Injection Boundary curve looks like:

    Attachment 66692

    Excel spreadsheet attached
    Big bore motor with some overlap and an ect table tapering down to 80 at operating temp - this boundary would be OK / otherwise you might want to do what Higg's suggest and put boundary back around 510 or 520 at idle and lower rpms and keep the other numbers you've got...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  7. #47
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    To better elaborate - high rpm - more pulsewidth - ealier soi... You still have to keep soi away from it's previous eoi... This is hard coded in the ecm, so your looking to push eoi back as far as you can at higher rpms... Again going back to the perfect raw to vaporized fuel ratio...
    Here is what I am thinking with a Zero'd RPM table and stock ECT table:

    B.JPG

    Initially I was thinking the same thing as scott28 but modified my thinking a little bit and advance injection like stock up top. I don't think 3000 is the same as 6000, BTW!

    This graph retards idle injection vs stock to accommodate a bigger cam, it retards it even more at low-mid RPM for throttle response, and then advances it as you get higher RPMs/more pulsewidth to give more headroom to injectors.
    Last edited by Higgs Boson; 02-12-2017 at 11:03 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    Target the middle of what??

    What is regular rpm free revving??

    What does it mean to have "lower gears strung out?"

    I'm being serious, I have no idea what you are saying.
    I think we're chasing one another here It should be above this one... If need more elaboration - let me know...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    Here is what I am thinking with a Zero'd RPM table and stock ECT table:

    B.JPG
    You can try it, but I don't think you'll see any gains as your going against what we're after and kind of going back to the stock emissions philosophies
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  10. #50
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    I think we're chasing one another here It should be above this one... If need more elaboration - let me know...
    I do need more. Do you mean the middle of the intake valve lift for EOI? If so, then we agree on that.

    Not sure what strung out lower gears means, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    You can try it, but I don't think you'll see any gains as your going against what we're after and kind of going back to the stock emissions philosophies
    Up to about 3000 RPM I am still targeting EOI at the middle of the intake valve lift and then advance as we move to 6500 RPMs. I suppose it really depends on the RPM range you like to get froggy, if there is a lot of part throttle transitions between 3500 and 6000 like on a road course, maybe leave EOI retarded up there, but for a street car that plays harder in the 2500-3000 range or is simply WOT, like a drag race, I do think advancing injection this way is beneficial, I really don't see even with a stock setup, emissions being a concern at 4000-6500 RPMs but simply efficient injection practice, which advanced would be.

    Do you know the hardcoded limit for the delay between EOI and the subsequent SOI?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    I do need more. Do you mean the middle of the intake valve lift for EOI? If so, then we agree on that.

    Not sure what strung out lower gears means, etc.

    You put it in first gear - floor it out (your now up to redline, but instead of shifting - you let off of the throttle, but now you don't need a lot of throttle to keep it revving so pedal position is at 10 to 20 percent) - at this point soi and eoi are very close to one another, which is why you have to keep this in mind when setting up eoi... Same principles will carry over to cruise rpm areas = bad or good fuel economy... If it's a straight line car only - ignore soi and retard it as your stating / on the other side - if it's a daily driver - your going to have one ticked off owner



    Up to about 3000 RPM I am still targeting EOI at the middle of the intake valve lift and then advance as we move to 6500 RPMs. I suppose it really depends on the RPM range you like to get froggy, if there is a lot of part throttle transitions between 3500 and 6000 like on a road course, maybe leave EOI retarded up there, but for a street car that plays harder in the 2500-3000 range or is simply WOT, like a drag race, I do think advancing injection this way is beneficial, I really don't see even with a stock setup, emissions being a concern at 4000-6500 RPMs but simply efficient injection practice, which advanced would be.

    Peak valve lift depends on whether or not that's where your peak port velocity is - this requires head flow numbers and it only happens once per valve cycle = not that important... That's if that's what your referring to... Drag cars or even street cars like retarded up top - still going back to that peak tq and hp studies done by the old timers and my own personal research...

    Do you know the hardcoded limit for the delay between EOI and the subsequent SOI?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  12. #52
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    Do you know the hardcoded limit for the delay between EOI and the subsequent SOI?
    It was so many ms and Dave posted it a while back... Forgot the specific number?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    It was so many ms and Dave posted it a while back... Forgot the specific number?
    Found it - .8ms reset -
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottt28 View Post
    I've updated the spreadsheet a little bit. Here's a screenshot. Full files using my cam specs and tune/log information attached. GHuggins/Schpenxel/Mowton... I would appreciate it if you found time to comment.

    Attachment 66691

    Agreed. There is no such thing as "one size fits all" when it comes to tunes. The spreadsheet is just a tool to try to show what's happening. I'm not going to include a lengthy disclaimer here. Anybody reading this has to use his/her own judgment on the tools and/or the suggestions.

    Here's a what my Injection Boundary curve looks like:

    Attachment 66692

    Excel spreadsheet attached
    Went back and looked at the spreadsheet more in detail - I really like the fact that you give actual soi numbers in relation to exhaust valve closing vs rpm numbers... Also compared your boundary to some of mine - honestly other than peak maybe being too high - also didn't look bad - for a stock cam your too retarded in the mid rpm areas and at peak, but for an overlap cam especially combined with a pd blower, you could actually be more retarded in the mid rpm areas... You should also notice better cold starting with that boundary for a really aggressive cam...

    Is there a reason why you have two rpm cam visuals? Do the crosshairs open and close to represent soi and eoi like carsons?

    I'm liking this more and more with the more time I spend looking at it
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  15. #55
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    I will post back up with results after I test some different injection timings

  16. #56
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Just to throw another method in the mix, think about a carburator. Is there fuel always sitting on the intake valve and air and fuel enter the chamber when the intake valve is open?

    In fuel injection terms, this would mean SOI is the same as IVC and EOI is IVO (even though technically the "injector" is just always on).

    With that said, moving from:

    Carb to port injection means you don't have fuel in the intake manifold at all times and you can clean up idle and very low fueling by avoiding spraying during camshaft overlap. The method would be delayed injection where possible.

    Port to direct allows injection to occur later, technically, and EOI up to just before spark and no fuel is sprayed until after the intake is already open (technically this is a drawback and limits headroom and power potential) because you can't spray before that as you either have combustion going on or the exhaust stroke going on. However, port injection cannot spray this late because it is not as atomized as a 2000 psi DI injector and you also cannot spray into the combustion chamber if the intake valve is closed. Therefore, DI allows a later spray than port.

    So, is "Fueling Evolution" delaying EOI?


    Hey here's a funny post from 2011 I just googled.....
    http://ls1tech.com/forums/pcm-diagno...l#post14963722
    Last edited by Higgs Boson; 02-12-2017 at 03:58 PM.

  17. #57
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    I've never looked at it "exactly" like that even though that's exactly how I do the most of my injection timing...

    It's funny - a lot of the benefits I've even found with gen 5's is delaying soi until the cylinder pressure is higher or rather retarding the timing... Another way I'm getting fuel economy out of those beast... But don't change it much Higg's - you can pm for an exact number - you might be surprised how much difference a small number can make for idle and cruise economy...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  18. #58
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    I've never looked at it "exactly" like that even though that's exactly how I do the most of my injection timing...

    It's funny - a lot of the benefits I've even found with gen 5's is delaying soi until the cylinder pressure is higher or rather retarding the timing... Another way I'm getting fuel economy out of those beast... But don't change it much Higg's - you can pm for an exact number - you might be surprised how much difference a small number can make for idle and cruise economy...
    I'm pretty good at the GenV stuff at this point especially since we can log SOI and EOI at the same time, it's easy to tell right where we are with it. It's just been a long time since I messed with injection timing on a GenIV motor, based on that link it looks like I was pretty opinionated in 2011 about it though, and guess what, I advocated delaying it, too!

  19. #59
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    Things got a little sidetracked, but post 54 Scottt28...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  20. #60
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    It's going to take me a week to read all of this