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Thread: NN tuning help

  1. #1

    NN tuning help

    Ive done the VE tuning method on a few cars, from what im seeing stockish cars seem to run better with NN on. Curosity has me and Ive never really messed with the dialing in side. I know you do it via inj pulsewidth tables but what exactly do you change?

  2. #2
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    please specify which PCM year your working on
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  3. #3
    2013.

  4. #4
    Senior Tuner SultanHassanMasTuning's Avatar
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    no need to touch ANN if your not cammed. the VE needs to be completely reworked from stock form
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    You change the inj fuel mass to trim the fueling with NN on.
    Basically these tables tell the PCM how much fuel mass to expect at a certain PW.
    If you make the mass smaller, it assumes the injectors are smaller and will command more PW to meet the target FA.
    Obviously vise versa if you make the mass numbers larger.
    So smaller fuel mass = richer AFR
    Larger fuel mass = leaner AFR
    Both Inj tables need to be same values


    Quote Originally Posted by bkg06gto View Post
    Ive done the VE tuning method on a few cars, from what im seeing stockish cars seem to run better with NN on. Curosity has me and Ive never really messed with the dialing in side. I know you do it via inj pulsewidth tables but what exactly do you change?

  6. #6
    Got ya. By both tables being the same...

    for instance if you make the mass smaller do you change values in the pulse width table or do you just match the scale to your new fuel mass table

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    Quote Originally Posted by bkg06gto View Post
    Got ya. By both tables being the same...

    for instance if you make the mass smaller do you change values in the pulse width table or do you just match the scale to your new fuel mass table
    You only make changes to inj PW, don't change the fuel mass. After you make your changes in the InjPW vs Fuel Mass table, copy the Inj PW, open up the Fuel Mass vs InjPW table, click on the InjPW on the left side of the table and it will bring up the InjPW table. Paste the data you copied from the first table. The two tables are just inverse of each other and have to match.

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner uarperformance's Avatar
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    You only Touch fuel mass when going boosted and staying with NN.

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    All these NN cars with headers, intakes, ported TBs, etc etc do not require any modifications to the tune unless you want to change spark lead or cam timing?

    Also, I have added lots of spark lead to my 2014 Wrangler and advanced the cams, etc and have not seen or heard any knock at all (running 93). What's up with that?

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    I love to break all the rules it seems...
    Tuning with NN on, I set-up PE as an adder above stoich for my required AFR target.
    Then I tweak fuel mass till that target is achieved.
    So now if I make changes to PE, actual AFR pretty well follows what I command.
    I thought this was common practice no?? Or is everyone still doing the DS NN thing of screwing the PE way up/down to get fuelling kinda correct at WOT??
    I often add extra break points for Inj Ms also to get it real nice.

  11. #11
    I thought that is how NN stuff was supposed to be tuned myself also. At least that is how I plan on doing my truck when I get around to it. How do you add extra points? I thought you only get so many?

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner uarperformance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshCP527 View Post
    I thought that is how NN stuff was supposed to be tuned myself also. At least that is how I plan on doing my truck when I get around to it. How do you add extra points? I thought you only get so many?
    You will see the top couple are the same, also very high numbers, they are close together in lower portions so you can spread it out to be smoother.

  13. #13
    Senior Tuner Mep_q8's Avatar
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    There are countless ways of tuning, and one being you can either adjust injector output, or re-do the VE tables.

    The first way is the easiest way, and tuning the VE table does take time, but you have a perfect VE table which always help especially with transient.

    I've had a lot of customers say they felt a better improvement when I've dialed in the VE.

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    I thought this thread was about NN tuning........

    Quote Originally Posted by Mep_q8 View Post
    There are countless ways of tuning, and one being you can either adjust injector output, or re-do the VE tables.

    The first way is the easiest way, and tuning the VE table does take time, but you have a perfect VE table which always help especially with transient.

    I've had a lot of customers say they felt a better improvement when I've dialed in the VE.

  15. #15
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    True, there are a few approaches you can use to tune these Dodges.
    Tweak tune with NN on - Quick and easy suits bolt-ons or slight mods.
    NN off and tune VE - more time consuming but you can get better result if you know your stuff.
    VE tuned and run in open loop. - Total control over fueling for highly modded/blowers etc, takes most time, but best results if done right.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    I love to break all the rules it seems...
    Tuning with NN on, I set-up PE as an adder above stoich for my required AFR target.
    Then I tweak fuel mass till that target is achieved.
    So now if I make changes to PE, actual AFR pretty well follows what I command.
    I often add extra break points for Inj Ms also to get it real nice.
    beats me that's the way i've always done it.

  17. #17
    See that's why I was curious how to do it. Ive always done the Ve approach due to my past with Gm cars etc and usually seem to have decent results. Never did or attempted a NN on tune. So my personal car is a 13 charger RT with headers and full exhaust. NN off tune. Friends is a 13 challenger RT setup the same way. both cars A5s, both same gearing. The NN car seems to idle better especially when cold daily drive better and shift more responsive especially from a low speed roll. but my car seems to hit target AFR better, and pulls harder through the entire RPM range. The challenger has yet to pull my car or be able to outrun it. IM assuming my complaints with the NN off is just adjusting the finer points. but it is truly different.

    Also talking point, I realize the numbers mean nothing and is a calculated equation by the PCM, but have any of you ever looked at the HP/Tq tab in the SRT section of the uconnect? Both our cars have it thanks to a Tazer. Well anyways NN on the max number the output reads is 360 "hp" at about 5,000 rpms and stays until shift. this is with AFR avg of 12.5. With NN off and VE dialed in same AFR the output climbs the entire rpm range and ends around 430 "hp" at shift. Odd thing I noticed didn't know if anyone else has. Again clarification I understand these numbers are calculations and not real. just odd for that to occur to me.

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner WS6HUMMER's Avatar
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    I've switched the NN off and tuned via VE, was a lot of work because the stock VE and FA cold enrichment are pretty far off. The NN is pretty sufficient on mildly modded non cammed stuff from what I've tested.
    99 T/A WS6, original LS1 turbo

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hemituna View Post
    I love to break all the rules it seems...
    Tuning with NN on, I set-up PE as an adder above stoich for my required AFR target.
    Then I tweak fuel mass till that target is achieved.
    So now if I make changes to PE, actual AFR pretty well follows what I command.
    I thought this was common practice no?? Or is everyone still doing the DS NN thing of screwing the PE way up/down to get fuelling kinda correct at WOT??
    I often add extra break points for Inj Ms also to get it real nice.

    Same here, these NN threads always confuse the crap out of me because I have never had issues getting the AFR where I want. That being said I have just tuned mild bolt on cars, and for the most part I'm only really concerned with WOT fueling.

  20. #20
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    This is where the conundrum lies........
    If you tune NN on, WOT is good, starts/idles/drives nice etc. But if is your own car or you are picky, and leave the AFR gauge in the car for some time,
    you will see that the AFR is sometimes a bit all over the place at certain combinations of pedal and RPM.
    Nothing upsetting, but some rich and slightly lean spots that aren't quite perfect.
    Most don't care and truthfully you can barely tell or feel it. A NN tune will satisfy all but the fussiest.
    But if like me it does your head in if it is not spot on, you are then forced down the path of VE tuning or open loop.
    Waaaay more work but nicer result in the end.
    Horses for courses I guess.....

    Quote Originally Posted by BigCE View Post
    Same here, these NN threads always confuse the crap out of me because I have never had issues getting the AFR where I want. That being said I have just tuned mild bolt on cars, and for the most part I'm only really concerned with WOT fueling.