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Thread: Basic Dodge Fuel Tuning Options and Steps

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Basic Dodge Fuel Tuning Options and Steps

    So I have messed with a few 2012-13 Challengers, but trying to fully grasp my Dodge tuning options. I have read several posts but would like to discuss a few things all together. PLEASE correct me if I state something wrong, this is just my current understanding without ever doing most of it yet.


    First the desired AFR must be set:
    For either of the following two methods you first set your desired fueling by FA (fuel/air) power enrichment vs aircharge table. And I assume the car will use the richer value out of this table and FA PE vs PRatio?
    If FA Stoich is 0.068, that means AFR of 14.7 (1/.068). If I want to demand 12.5 AFR (would be .080 using same logic) during power enrichment, my FA PE table is an adder (demand - stoich) and needs to have a 0.012 (which represents .080-.068).


    Option 1 - Leave Neural Network (NN) Enabled:
    a - set desired AFR
    b - adjust by AFR error at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) by
    b1. Fuel Mass vs InjPW (if lean by 5% multiply entire table by .95, if rich by 5% then 1.05)
    AND
    b2. injPW vs Fuel Mass (should be same data as above just swapped, so copy Fuel Mass data and select row_axis>edit and paste into label)
    c - if you need to tune fueling by rpm do you have to "fake" this by fudging the FA power enrichment numbers?
    d - don't really need to tune part throttle at all after faking injector size? that taken care of by what, trims?
    e - don't need to adjust for cold starts most of the time, but if needed FA cold enrich the best place?


    Option 2 - Disable NN and use Volumetric Efficiency Tables (VE):
    From the few I have seen the factory VE tables need a lot of work. Cold start tables also need work.
    a - set desired AFR
    b - disable baro learn (has been said to be a complete multiplier for tune and may cause uncontrollable swings)
    c - tune entire VE table using short term fuel trims and AFR error (like GM closed loop speed density tuning)
    d - Cold start will need more fuel using one of two methods (don't know which is preferred or a good starting point?)
    d1. VE ECT factor
    OR
    d2. FA cold enrich



    Please let me know of any errors, and here are a few questions that would help me nail this down so I can update the above:
    1. Is there ANY benifit to dialing VE tables in with NN turned off then turning NN back on.
    2. Some people say VEs are not used AT ALL with NN enabled, and some just say to a much lesser degree
    3. Are the factory VE tables dialed in to work best in NN mode or just really really bad for some reason (what reason?)
    4. Car will use the richer value out of FA PE vs aircharge table and FA PE vs PRatio?
    5. is that how you adjust Fuel Mass/InjPW with NN enabled?
    6. how to tune by rpm with NN enabled, "fake" the FA PE table?
    7. prefer VE ECT factor or FA cold enrich for adjusting cold starts in VE mode? and good starting point?
    8. are there any other important steps in either method?

  2. #2
    I started a NN tune thread a little bit ago, So I cant say I'm an expert by any means. To my understanding (which may be wrong) you would just adjust in the pulse width areas of WOT (near the bottom). This may be wrong and maybe Mike or AJ can chime in. Also I wasn't aware of a way to log AFR error against Fuel mass but this could be again a lack of knowledge of NN tuning or are you using a normal table for AFR error and using it to adjust?


    As far as VE tables, its pretty straight forward and basically identical to LSX Gm speed density in my opinion. The hardest part is starting out because the table is grossly off especially in the idle cells. Make sure the car is completely warm and at a normal idle. I have seen the car adding a lot of fuel while cold and make your trims seem crazy off. As far as cold starts personally I have used the FA cold enrich and had pretty good results.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Bossy70 View Post
    So I have messed with a few 2012-13 Challengers, but trying to fully grasp my Dodge tuning options. I have read several posts but would like to discuss a few things all together. PLEASE correct me if I state something wrong, this is just my current understanding without ever doing most of it yet.


    First the desired AFR must be set:
    For either of the following two methods you first set your desired fueling by FA (fuel/air) power enrichment vs aircharge table. And I assume the car will use the richer value out of this table and FA PE vs PRatio?
    If FA Stoich is 0.068, that means AFR of 14.7 (1/.068). If I want to demand 12.5 AFR (would be .080 using same logic) during power enrichment, my FA PE table is an adder (demand - stoich) and needs to have a 0.012 (which represents .080-.068).


    Option 1 - Leave Neural Network (NN) Enabled:
    a - set desired AFR
    b - adjust by AFR error at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) by
    b1. Fuel Mass vs InjPW (if lean by 5% multiply entire table by .95, if rich by 5% then 1.05)
    AND
    b2. injPW vs Fuel Mass (should be same data as above just swapped, so copy Fuel Mass data and select row_axis>edit and paste into label)
    c - if you need to tune fueling by rpm do you have to "fake" this by fudging the FA power enrichment numbers?
    d - don't really need to tune part throttle at all after faking injector size? that taken care of by what, trims?
    e - don't need to adjust for cold starts most of the time, but if needed FA cold enrich the best place?


    Option 2 - Disable NN and use Volumetric Efficiency Tables (VE):
    From the few I have seen the factory VE tables need a lot of work. Cold start tables also need work.
    a - set desired AFR
    b - disable baro learn (has been said to be a complete multiplier for tune and may cause uncontrollable swings)
    c - tune entire VE table using short term fuel trims and AFR error (like GM closed loop speed density tuning)
    d - Cold start will need more fuel using one of two methods (don't know which is preferred or a good starting point?)
    d1. VE ECT factor
    OR
    d2. FA cold enrich



    Please let me know of any errors, and here are a few questions that would help me nail this down so I can update the above:
    1. Is there ANY benifit to dialing VE tables in with NN turned off then turning NN back on.
    2. Some people say VEs are not used AT ALL with NN enabled, and some just say to a much lesser degree
    3. Are the factory VE tables dialed in to work best in NN mode or just really really bad for some reason (what reason?)
    4. Car will use the richer value out of FA PE vs aircharge table and FA PE vs PRatio?
    5. is that how you adjust Fuel Mass/InjPW with NN enabled?
    6. how to tune by rpm with NN enabled, "fake" the FA PE table?
    7. prefer VE ECT factor or FA cold enrich for adjusting cold starts in VE mode? and good starting point?
    8. are there any other important steps in either method?
    i still can't figure this out because on a hellcat that i'm trying to tune, the FA stoich is 0.0722 and the PE vs aircharge vs rpm is 0.0110. You said that a value of 0.068 equals 14.7 AFR what about the pr table?

    its kinda confusing to me

  4. #4
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    Hellcat FA stoich is .0722.
    Take Lambda, 1.0 and divide it by .0722 which is 13.68. That's what the kittys stoich value is in AFR
    To figure out the WOT FA multiplier(or any multiplier) .0722+.0110=.0832
    1.0/.0832=12.01, that's your commanded WOT AFR ratio.

  5. #5
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    If you turn NN back on after tuning VE, it will ignore the VE tuning you just did.

    Yes you can log Lambda error vs Fuel Mass and adjust InjPW accordingly.

    Add more breakpoints for the factory injectors to get better resolution so you can adjust more cells.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    If you turn NN back on after tuning VE, it will ignore the VE tuning you just did.

    Yes you can log Lambda error vs Fuel Mass and adjust InjPW accordingly.

    Add more breakpoints for the factory injectors to get better resolution so you can adjust more cells.

    i appreciate your time sir,

    i'm going to command my AFR and tweak on the injPW to get the AFR at where i want it to be.

    after the upper 2.85 pulley, AFE cai, and the cat delete, the kitty is super rich at high rpm. so hopefully i get leaned out where it should be.

    a quick question, is there a way i can just multiply the injPW table by %? for instance, if i want to add 5% of fuel at certain rpm, do i go to the injPW and multiply couple cells by 1.5 ( like tuning GM). i know the injPW table doesn't have rpm

    thank you again for the help..

  7. #7
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    https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...NN-tuning-help

    this thread is bumped right above yours. It explains how to setup your histograms and how to tune the InjPW tables and inverse tables.

    There has been a lot of really good info recently on how to tune these cats. You just need to take the time to search for it.

  8. #8
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    More info

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    If you turn NN back on after tuning VE, it will ignore the VE tuning you just did.

    Yes you can log Lambda error vs Fuel Mass and adjust InjPW accordingly.

    Add more breakpoints for the factory injectors to get better resolution so you can adjust more cells.
    Please give small example on the logging part. Kinda got an info over load going on in the brain. Laugh if you want but started somewhere. Do I change the value in the Stoich tab from 0.0688 to 0.0792 before changing PE vs aircharge vs rpm table or do I leave it alone. I also have a bigger cam and heads redone with ports opened to 6.1 and biggers valves if it helps i attached a picture of my AIRCHARGE and P-Ratio chartsIMG_20170616_085757978[1].jpg. any help would work thanks

    thanks for all the INFOIMG_20170616_084936566[1].jpg
    Last edited by RickyP; 06-16-2017 at 08:00 AM.

  9. #9
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    No one is going to laugh at you bud. I'll try and answer your questions here in a bit.

  10. #10
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    Ricky,

    1st, what vehicle is it? What's all been done to it.

  11. #11
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    Thanks Jay. Its a 2010 Dodge Challenger With a 5.7 Hemi. with a Cam. Eagle heads with intake and exhaust opened up to 6.1 size ports. bigger intake and exhaust valves, PSI springs. Hellcat lifters with mds delete. Long Tube headers no cats 1 7/8 to 3". 2.5" exhaust from headers back and "N2O" 200HP. Luckily I live where there is no emissions check. I was using diablosport but you can't learn with it and I get tired of paying people over and over for something that I really would love to learn to do anyway. I did all the motor work myself and I would really like to be the one making run like a raped date going down the track. I think being able to tune it also would give me the full fulfillment and all my hard work and I think everyone on her knows exactly how I feel. After all, We are MEN and we like to be able to take full credit for our end results when people say " DANG MAN THAT WAS ONE MEAN MOTHER". That's what I call my girl "MEAN MOTHER" Because with what I have done to it it should in the 7 eight mile second range without the bottle but even with the diablo tune i couldn't get past and I was doing close to that before before I tore the motor apart.

    Thanks again Jay

  12. #12
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    I also have 3400 stall converter

  13. #13
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    Also, How can a car have -2.0 and -3.0 KR

  14. #14
    so the couple dodges Ive calibrated Ive done NN.

    Ive been thinking for changing that, and wondering which end of the scale is idle and which is WOT. Which is WOT the 0.00 end of the scale or the 1.02 which in my GM head is G/Cyl for WOT. as im writing this im thinking the 1.02 end is WOT.

  15. #15
    the hellcat stoich is .0722 because of wideband calibration that you cannot change. You have to use offsets to get it to read outside of calibration. Use lambda not AFR.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickyP View Post
    Also, How can a car have -2.0 and -3.0 KR
    Dodge uses Negatives instead of Positives, but that?s showing how many degrees it is taking away.

  17. #17
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    Sorry to revive an old thread but am having trouble with a 2017 Charger. Pulled the stock tune off the ecu and when I disable the Neural network under Airflow -> Neural Network and switching it to disabled does not reveal or have a VE table option appear. Has anyone had this similar issue? Car is equipped with a RIPP Supercharger and would rather not use NN if VE is an option. Kicking myself in the head trying to figure this out. Thanks guys

  18. #18
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    VE tables are under the airflow->speed density tab.
    VE.JPG

  19. #19
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    anyone have some recommend steps on a LM 2009 hemi? the Training books are based more on the 15 up.. i have a 09 a little different.
    My ride.. 2009 Limited SRT8, Brilliant Black ⚫, Centerforce Clutch RIPx2 now Ram Clutches!, Full Adjustable BMR suspension, Solid mounted Cradle and Diff, DSS 1PC DS, Level 5 Axles, Belanger Headers, AFR500V2, Lowered, 180 Tstat, RonDavis Rad, Staggered tires.

  20. #20
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    There are slight differences between GPEC2A and GPEC2 (most likely your engine controller) in that the GPEC2A tends to have a few more tables defined but tuning-wise they are pretty much identical. For example, my 2013 JGC has a GPEC2 and my 2015 challenger GPEC2A and I find tune both to be very similar in that most of the tables I use are present.

    If you need some more info check out the links in this thread. I'd say most info in that thread is derived from tuning of GPEC2 ECUs.
    https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...l=1#post525502