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Thread: 6R140 TCC Lockup

  1. #1

    6R140 TCC Lockup

    How can I achieve TCC Lockup on the Ford 6.7 in 5th and 6th gears? I'm finding that the TCC is slipping and shuddering while rolling on the throttle in 6th gear. Lots of slip and not much acceleration. If I command TCC lockup test mode this problem goes away. Is there a way I can program TCC lockup into the shift schedule somehow?

  2. #2

    Need some trans tuning help

    Can anyone offer advice on how to get this tune to lock up the converter? The converter seems to slip and unlock to easily but if I enable the Test TCC lock mode it doesn't slip at all. But as you know it's not all that drivable with TCC Test lock enabled.
    Last edited by gilgamesh; 05-15-2017 at 01:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Woooh doggy! I got that sucker locked up what a difference! Not sure if I did it correctly or not. I ended up increasing a bunch of TCC values by what seem like drastic amounts. Lock-Lock Shift, Lockup rate after shift changed all those to 700lbft, increased capacity adder values by 100, pretty much doubled the values in the TCC step change torque request, all capacity intercept values set to 400lbft

  4. #4
    Did you lower the speed values for when the converter is supposed to lockup?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by CKrueg View Post
    Did you lower the speed values for when the converter is supposed to lockup?
    These are the only values I changed which seemed to keep 6th gear from slipping on me. The rest of the shifts seem a bit more solid now as well.
    TCC-Changes.JPG

    I've been having some shift flaring problems at low RPM (prior to any of these changes) as well. I think I may have resolved those by increasing oncoming and offgoing pressure. It would be great if someone could weigh in on those changes as well. They seem to remove the shift flare completely but if they might cause problems, I'd try to refine the shift pressures a bit more. I'm very new to tuning just learning my way around. It's pretty awesome to be able to make changes that have such a postive impact on how the truck performs.

    TransPressureOffgoing.JPG
    TransPressureOncoming.JPG

    I also wanted to point out this thread which helped me quite a bit when hunting around for things to change. https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...ng-Definitions
    Last edited by gilgamesh; 03-27-2017 at 03:39 PM. Reason: added link to other thread

  6. #6
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    Someone can upload 6r140 tcm stock file please?

  7. #7
    Here's a stock file.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #8
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgamesh View Post
    These are the only values I changed which seemed to keep 6th gear from slipping on me. The rest of the shifts seem a bit more solid now as well.
    TCC-Changes.JPG

    I've been having some shift flaring problems at low RPM (prior to any of these changes) as well. I think I may have resolved those by increasing oncoming and offgoing pressure. It would be great if someone could weigh in on those changes as well. They seem to remove the shift flare completely but if they might cause problems, I'd try to refine the shift pressures a bit more. I'm very new to tuning just learning my way around. It's pretty awesome to be able to make changes that have such a postive impact on how the truck performs.

    TransPressureOffgoing.JPG
    TransPressureOncoming.JPG

    I also wanted to point out this thread which helped me quite a bit when hunting around for things to change. https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...ng-Definitions
    Your post helped immensely. Looks like Ford zeroed out some of the tables for the 6F55 on the Explorer, but kept them in the Fusion. I keep forgetting about the S550 link.

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    So how does murfie's post work out? He's basically saying to reduce the values for a looser converter, but you obviously increased the values to tighten the converter lockup.

    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    So the torque convertor is made up of four parts.

    Impeller ( part physically attached to engine and drives fluid)
    Turbine (part physically attached to input shaft and driven by fluid)
    Reactor (Directs fluid from the turbine to the impeller to assist in torque multiplication, Stationary at low speeds, rotates at higher speeds)
    TCC

    The TCC is a 2 plate clutch. It has three states Apply/Release/ Modulate(slip). It can only be applied in 2nd- 6th. Pressure is removed from one side of the plate to apply the clutch. The bypass clutch control regulator valve controls the pressure and flow direction of transmission fluid to apply or release the clutch. The TCC solenoid controls the direction of this valve. Everything works off a pressure per torque @ RPM system. So higher rpm/ torque values usually mean more pressure away and the less the clutch is applied. So "0's" are fully applied. You'll notice some of the "1st gear" tables are full of "0s" which doesnt matter as the TCC does not apply in 1st.

    Lock to lock shift: raised in the higher torque area to loosen convertor on all lock to lock shifts(basically all but 1-2, maybe 2-3)
    After up shift: raised to have a looser converter feel after shift

    Both of these are a rate at which the TCC applies. low applies faster high applies slower.

    Added capacity during shift: raised to have TCC applied less during shift.
    Added capacity non shift: Raised to have less TCC applied during accel and decel.

    Maybe you can see a pattern for TCC tuning.

    Step change capacity non shift, upshift, downshift: This modifies Torque values for better feel.

    Capacity intercept: These are maximums(limits) based on temperature.

    A lot of this is how the car feels to drive. Some of it can improve performance by allowing more torque multiplication.

    For stock convertor you want to release the TCC some for performance. For higher stall you need to play with it to see where it feels good to drive while still getting the performance you got it for.

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner skylinedan's Avatar
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    Thanks for quoting that, Murfie is the one guy that knows Ford transmissions really well.

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylinedan View Post
    Thanks for quoting that, Murfie is the one guy that knows Ford transmissions really well.
    I sent him a PM hoping he'll chime in. I looked at the stock 6R140 values and they trend on the higher values (ft-lb) which suggests to me the higher the number, the more/faster TCC lockup.

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner JaegerWrenching's Avatar
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    Your indicated engine torque tables are important to get right as well, they change how much "torque" the engine is "producing". If you add power and don't adjust them properly you'll have issues with shift flare developing over time.

  13. #13
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    Your accel pedal request torque at the wheels, delivered from the engine. The engine control may or may not think it can produce the request. The torque also needs to flow through the transmission, which may or may not think it can transmit the request. being overly simple and general, in a manual car it's no slip what goes in comes out and goes to the wheels. In an automatic what goes in is not what comes out.

    a 450ftlb request at the wheels may start as a 550ftlb request from the engine, this may allow the TCC to unlock to allow the engine to reach an RPM that it can make this much torque. Because its unlocked and slipping it will only be 450 ftlbs at the wheels, but thats what the demand was so everything works out. That same 450ftlb request at the wheels at a lower pedal input or higher RPM, may start out as a 455ftlb request from the engine, telling the TCC to minimize slipage to be able to make the required request at the wheels.

    Peak wheel torque needs to be defined well in your driver demand, and the torque the ECU thinks the engine produces needs to be fairly realistic. Comparing manuals to automatics DD tables is a good start for understanding.
    Below peak torque you may want slip to have the most potential torque at the tires. You may also not want slip, for drivability or fuel economy.
    Above peak torque you don't want slip, the torque going in from the engine needs to be the same or lower than the torque coming out of the converter (what is requested at the wheels).
    What the torque converter general tab is defining is the TCC effect it has on output torque from input torque, reducing or allowing the torque loss to slippage from the engine. Where this slip can happen and be controlled is defined by between the apply/ release values. The S550 has a third slip value that helps define the physical stall a bit better to not have the TCC working as hard. You can lock the converter up easily by reducing the apply/ lock values, although it may be a lot harsher lockup then leaving some space for the general tab to modulate the TCC into lock up.

    Don't think of general practices like raise values or lower values to lock the TCC any more, think of torque in and torque out and how much the TCC will need to work, or not work, to achieve the desired slippage, if the converter can even slip as much as it is being asked too. This way you can properly scale tables to the amount of torque your engine is producing and you can maintain great drivability with higher stall torque converters by keeping the driver demand torque at the wheel reasonable and realistic. Not too high or too low.

  14. #14
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Thanks for chiming in murfie!

    So the values gilgamesh experimented with to achieve better lockup in 6th gear are under the General Tab. He increased those values for better/faster lockup. You mentioned in the other thread that lowering/reducing these values achieves faster lockup. So which is it? The shift to shift and upshift lockup rates have been a point of contention on the threads I've seen. It would seem a higher rate (e.g. 650 ft-lb/sec) would mean a faster lockup rate at any given torque input/request than a smaller rate.

    Under the Apply/Release tab, I'm assuming we're talking about the TCC Maps. There are columns for TCC Unlock, Slip, and Lock. (later S550 10R80 split these into individual tables). Veefour and Jaeger mentioned in the other thread that the TCC is commanded to lock as long as your OSS is between the Slip and Lock values, but at WOT there will be slippage between these two OSS values. Are you saying that if the Slip values are reduced (smaller OSS's) it should allow lockup sooner? How do I minimize slippage at WOT? Increase the values in the General tab with the ramp rates / intercepts / capacities?

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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Thanks for chiming in murfie!

    So the values gilgamesh experimented with to achieve better lockup in 6th gear are under the General Tab. He increased those values for better/faster lockup. You mentioned in the other thread that lowering/reducing these values achieves faster lockup. So which is it? The shift to shift and upshift lockup rates have been a point of contention on the threads I've seen. It would seem a higher rate (e.g. 650 ft-lb/sec) would mean a faster lockup rate at any given torque input/request than a smaller rate.

    I was just like you all, confused about what i've read vs. what seemed logical...

    Let me just put this topic to rest with the disclaimer that your results may differ. On my 2014 Mustang GT which was N/A at the time, a 6R80 trans w/ 4C - 3800rpm stall converter (very slippery) I performed the following tests in 3rd gear @ WOT:

    Changing lockup rate values in 'Lock to Lock' and 'After Upshift':
    Test 1: Stock values x 2 (200%) = Relatively quicker lockup! Impressions were that it was faster than stock but not extremely fast like my shifts Lockup took 403ms to complete. The TCC pressure was HIGHER.
    Test 2: Stock values / 4 (25%) = Much slower lockup! Impressions were holy crap!!! It's like feathering the clutch on takeoff of a manual. The rpms didn't fall or rise they just stayed the same until full engagement! Lockup took 2031ms to complete! The TCC pressure was LOWER!

    If this helped you, then smash that rep button
    Knock Retard is the reduction or prevention of knock by lowering ignition timing:

    (+) Adding Knock Retard = Reducing Timing. PCM is seeing knock.
    (--) Lowering Knock Retard = Increasing Timing. PCM isn't seeing knock.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgamesh View Post
    Woooh doggy! I got that sucker locked up what a difference! Not sure if I did it correctly or not. I ended up increasing a bunch of TCC values by what seem like drastic amounts. Lock-Lock Shift, Lockup rate after shift changed all those to 700lbft, increased capacity adder values by 100, pretty much doubled the values in the TCC step change torque request, all capacity intercept values set to 400lbft
    i know this is an old thread but doing similar changes to my 250 seems to have made a great change in my trucks shifting and lockup. so far loving the changes.

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner skylinedan's Avatar
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    Nothing wrong with digging up an old thread and commenting, this place gets pretty dead at times, to the point you think no body is tuning cars anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbolt22 View Post
    I was just like you all, confused about what i've read vs. what seemed logical...

    Let me just put this topic to rest with the disclaimer that your results may differ. On my 2014 Mustang GT which was N/A at the time, a 6R80 trans w/ 4C - 3800rpm stall converter (very slippery) I performed the following tests in 3rd gear @ WOT:

    Changing lockup rate values in 'Lock to Lock' and 'After Upshift':
    Test 1: Stock values x 2 (200%) = Relatively quicker lockup! Impressions were that it was faster than stock but not extremely fast like my shifts Lockup took 403ms to complete. The TCC pressure was HIGHER.
    Test 2: Stock values / 4 (25%) = Much slower lockup! Impressions were holy crap!!! It's like feathering the clutch on takeoff of a manual. The rpms didn't fall or rise they just stayed the same until full engagement! Lockup took 2031ms to complete! The TCC pressure was LOWER!

    If this helped you, then smash that rep button
    which result did you like better 1 or 2