E38 tuning help

[95ttoplt1]

Gents,

We have an 07 Escalade ESV AWD with a L92 418, Ported heads, Gibson shorties, stock intake system, stock exhaust system. Comp VVt Cam 156-400-13 210/224 .556 .568. 114 LSA, Morel lifters, 11.2:1(chambers softened) Comp push rods, trunion upgrade, LS3 injectors.

I've tuned 100's of LT1 cars with datamaster and tuner cat, both SD and MAF tunes. Plus 100's of carb cars. the tuning parameters aren't a new concept and after driving it I can see where the changes need to be made, I just don't know where to go in HPtuners. I've read all the FAQ's, but they are two versions of software behind(and ten years old) what I have installed, and show tables that simply aren't in my file, at least that I can find.

Obviously this isn't a race car, but when it was first built with the truck injectors per the data it was turning all 4 tires on dry pavement. I did buy HP tuners basic and a mail order tune from PCM of NC. We made a couple pulls on the street with the initial tune and stock injectors(intention was to stay with the stock L92 injectors). Unfortunately we were out of injector at 5400, its supposed to shift at 6400. So we swapped in a set of new stock LS3 injectors and had them redo the tune. Since then it has just been far from right and obviously down on power. They have worked the tune 4 times, and it really has zero changes in drive-ability and performance. I give up, I guess that $200 went to money heaven.

So problems I have with the tune.

1. Idle hunt. I've read tons on this and how to fix it, but the tables referenced simply aren't in my tune, at least that I can find. AFR at idles starts nice and smooth, but after 20 seconds or so it starts chasing idle speed, and AFR bounces from high 12s-high 15's.

2. WOT fueling is all over the place. Commanded starts at 12.8, then drops to 11.8, the 10.8.....performance follows this trend. The actual AFR starts perfect at 12.6-12.8, then goes to high 13's, then heads down into the tens. Seriously I don't think I could get a carb to fuel this poorly.

3. Spark drops from 24-10 about the same time the WOT AFR starts going leans, shocker.... you can imgaine to what the power does at this point.

4. They told me this was a SD tune, but for the life of me I can't see how. Is SD even necessary at this level? Its just a little warmed over stock plus the cubes. Per fuel it was making over 540hp, we think it would be close to 600hp the way it rolling now(if we can get the tune fixed). No AWD dynos within a reasonable distance.


It seems I got the cool E38 with no VE table.

I've read about a "MAF disable" selection but I can't find that menu.

Where is the cam VVT table located? I have a sneaking suspicion that this is just zeros.

Any and all help would be appreciated. I am logging the Aem Wideband via AC pressure. Formula used is (2.375*[7101.10]+7.5125) This read right on with the gauge.

I have attached the tune and a log file. In the log you can see the acceleration in first gear level off as the AFR goes lean and it pulls all the timing out.

[schpenxel]

First, make sure you're in advanced view. Edit, view advanced. You won't see much of anything useful otherwise. I really wish they would make this the default.

Edit, virtual VE to get to the "Virtual VE table". Keep in mind there is a manifold switch "open" and manifold switch "closed" table (there's a drop down list at the top left of VVE editor). Most vehicle use the Open table but I think this vehicle might actually use both. Just somethign to keep in mind while experimenting.

VVT is under airflow, variable crankshaft and there's also a table somewhere in spark, advance, "Variable cam" to adjust spark

Yes, it is an SD tune, technically.. they have the MAF disabled and are using Virtual VE (Sorry for earlier post, I thought it was a FI setup to begin with but it isn't)

Also keep in mind the fuel pressure you're logging is what it "thinks" the fuel pressure it is. It isn't the actual value, so keep an eye on fuel pressure some other way if you need to

[95ttoplt1]

First, make sure you're in advanced view. Edit, view advanced. You won't see much of anything useful otherwise. I really wish they would make this the default.

Edit, virtual VE to get to the "Virtual VE table". Keep in mind there is a manifold switch "open" and manifold switch "closed" table (there's a drop down list at the top left of VVE editor). Most vehicle use the Open table but I think this vehicle might actually use both. Just somethign to keep in mind while experimenting.

VVT is under airflow, variable crankshaft and there's also a table somewhere in spark, advance, "Variable cam" to adjust spark

Yes, it is an SD tune, technically.. they have the MAF disabled and are using Virtual VE (Sorry for earlier post, I thought it was a FI setup to begin with but it isn't)

Also keep in mind the fuel pressure you're logging is what it "thinks" the fuel pressure it is. It isn't the actual value, so keep an eye on fuel pressure some other way if you need to

Thanks! That view advanced was what I was missing. Dumb that that isnt the default, or anything intuitive.

So is there a reason they would have put it into SD? I found where they failed the MAF at 1hz. Is that the only correction to go back to a MAF tune.

[mcfarlnd]

Probably no reason for SD. Just a preference for your tuner. It will help if you attach your Layout config as well.

[mcfarlnd]

What is the story on your injectors and fuel system? If you are running the stock return-less fuel system, you need to revisit the injector tables first and foremost then go back and do your VVE and MAF (Assuming you want to enable the MAF).

Edit: Your Injector data is no bueno regardless of return or returnless fuel system. This will cause you alot of headache. Get the data first then start chasing down other issues.

[95ttoplt1]

What is the story on your injectors and fuel system? If you are running the stock return-less fuel system, you need to revisit the injector tables first and foremost then go back and do your VVE and MAF (Assuming you want to enable the MAF).

Edit: Your Injector data is no bueno regardless of return or returnless fuel system. This will cause you alot of headache. Get the data first then start chasing down other issues.

Fuel system is factory stock. I know we may be approaching the limits. I have put a guage and ran it with no loss of pressure, but the gauge will be going back on until the tune is finished as the fueling is going to change a bit before its done.

What is no bueno with the injector tables? The injectors are stock LS3 injectors GM Part Number 12576341 Stock LS3 injectors. What is wrong and where? Break it down barney style, I'm new.

I'll start combing for the injector data and read all I can. Would Vette injector data tables simply copy and paste in?

Then the VE table will be fun since they adjusted the tune a couple times. I have all my old tunes though, I can just go back to where we started and go from there. I'd ASSume that would eliminate some headaches.

Thanks for the help!

[schpenxel]

So is there a reason they would have put it into SD? I found where they failed the MAF at 1hz. Is that the only correction to go back to a MAF tune.

SD tunes typically do better with larger cams, etc. No reversion to worry about going back through the MAF. Usually ends up being smoother. Not saying this is a large cam, just saying in general

Downside is VE tables are a lot bigger and take more time to dial in. But you can also cover up bad injector data easier on an SD tune

MAF only needs very good injector data IMO as you have very few cells to work with. The plus is MAF tables are small so it's easier.

VE or VVE is always used to some degree on these cars during quick changes (even in "MAF only") so it needs to be at least close regardless. I'd probably just leave it in SD and fix it

[schpenxel]

Injector data looks a little weird but it matches what I have for factory values for a 2007 Z06 LS7. Mainly the flow rates look weird

[95ttoplt1]

Scratch that. I had the wrong compare open.

Everything looks fine as far as injector data. Offset vs INJ temp is the only real difference outside timing events.

I don't see anything different with flow. Which table were you referring too?

Disregard the picture

[schpenxel]

That table was the same as the Z06 file I downloaded from there earlier. I'd check some others and see how they compare

Also, the offset tables I'd argue are just as important if not more so, so make sure to check those too. They matched on the file I was using except for in some weird like 4-5V areas that you'll never use anyways

[mcfarlnd]

Fuel system is factory stock. I know we may be approaching the limits. I have put a guage and ran it with no loss of pressure, but the gauge will be going back on until the tune is finished as the fueling is going to change a bit before its done.

What is no bueno with the injector tables? The injectors are stock LS3 injectors GM Part Number 12576341 Stock LS3 injectors. What is wrong and where? Break it down barney style, I'm new. I don't like the flow rates although they match what is in a tune I have from a stock 08 Vette. Not familiar with the fuel system in them if they have a regulator at the rail or they are returnless. For a returnless system, i dont know why all the flow rates are like that (someone may be able to chime in on that with more experience). Stock 07 Escalade with a 6.2 also has the injector table set like this but with lower flow rates. Generally returnless systems have a different flow rate plotted against each delta (refer to a stock truck tune and you will see what i mean). Other than that OFFSET vs INJ TEMP and maybe play with the injection timing tables too.

I'll start combing for the injector data and read all I can. Would Vette injector data tables simply copy and paste in? As long as the column axis is the same (which they are)

Then the VE table will be fun since they adjusted the tune a couple times. I have all my old tunes though, I can just go back to where we started and go from there. I'd ASSume that would eliminate some headaches.You can still use the one that is on it, just adjust from there.

Thanks for the help!

Replied in bold

[95ttoplt1]

I have been watching videos and reading all day really just working on my graphs and set up and PID's. I think I am actually heading in the right direction now. The WOT fueling is off in left fields, dangerously. I found the little button in scanner to lock it into 3rd gear and make it pull, AFR commanded to 12.8, actaully at 13.3 and going lean, started the pull at 2k ended at 3500 it was in the 14's and getting worse.

LTFT seem to be very very close. I'd assume I just need to make my adjustments to the PE tables.

MAF freq is at 8600hz at 3k rpm. So I would be out of MAF well before 6400. So I will stay in SD and see how it goes. I may re visist going back to MAF at a later date and scaling or something as I learn how all that works.

Thanks for the help. This has been a steep curve today. I just hope the engine isnt hurt from being so lean. We knew it got doggy after the injector change but no idea it was this bad, hell spark on the last little log when it was going lean was -9.5. It would have been a good race with a air cooled bug missing a plug wire. Sad, as this thing really ripped before this.

[95ttoplt1]

Replied in bold

My injector being set wasn't in response to this.

Typing more, didnt want to piss you off!

[95ttoplt1]

OK injector settings.

I too noticed the offset vs INJ temp being off. Should I set this to the vette file?

As far as the injector timing, I've read that adjusting those can bring more power, but it seems the places these vary from stock are in places where I don't care about power, ie at idle where it surges and isnt stable. Can I just put these back to stock? Would this effect piston slap(yes, I have forged short skirt pistons, they are loud haha).

Thanks for all the help guys. My wife will certainly appreciate the end result,

[95ttoplt1]

Ok I think I have a little here. You can see how bad it is. I included my math for the AEM wideband in via AC pressure.

I do need to build a graph to log for PE EQ. I got the top RPM obviously, but what am I displaying in the graph, and whats the left side?

Log file, and my layout fileTroy Default Channels.Channels.xmlTroy Default Charts.Charts.xmlTroy Default Gauges.Gauges.xmlTroy Default Graphs.Graphs.xmlTroy Default Layout.Layout.xmlAEM WIde Band.MathParameter.xmlESCALDE TRIP2 SD 7 6 15.hplTroy Default Channels.Channels.xmlTroy Default Charts.Charts.xmlTroy Default Gauges.Gauges.xmlTroy Default Graphs.Graphs.xmlTroy Default Layout.Layout.xmlAEM WIde Band.MathParameter.xmlESCALDE TRIP2 SD 7 6 15.hpl

[95ttoplt1]

Getting somewhere now. Finally got the graph set up I needed.

Now, if this was a carb car, it would need a more aggressive accelerator pump cam. Its lazy getting to commanded. How do I fix that lazyness?

[95ttoplt1]

I want that red line to drop to the yellow. A carb can do it, surely fancy EFI can do it.


Lazy AFR.JPG

[mcfarlnd]

Getting somewhere now. Finally got the graph set up I needed.

Now, if this was a carb car, it would need a more aggressive accelerator pump cam. Its lazy getting to commanded. How do I fix that lazyness?

Try setting the EQ ramp in rate to 2.00. Yours is set to 1.00 (higher the number, the faster to your desired)

[mcfarlnd]

OK injector settings.

I too noticed the offset vs INJ temp being off. Should I set this to the vette file?

As far as the injector timing, I've read that adjusting those can bring more power, but it seems the places these vary from stock are in places where I don't care about power, ie at idle where it surges and isnt stable. Can I just put these back to stock? Would this effect piston slap(yes, I have forged short skirt pistons, they are loud haha).

Thanks for all the help guys. My wife will certainly appreciate the end result,

I would. I try and retain any injector setting I can if I have GM data. As for the injector timing, it is purely up to you, just remember any injector and fueling changes, you will need to go back and adjust your VVE. No worries about the response, happy to help.

[sillycon]

MAF freq is at 8600hz at 3k rpm. So I would be out of MAF well before 6400. So I will stay in SD and see how it goes. I may re visist going back to MAF at a later date and scaling or something as I learn how all that works.

Bear in mind that the GM MAF sensor output isn't linear; it's got a pretty nasty curve to it - especially in the upper ranges. Although you're just above the middle of the "hz" output range overall, you're a long way away from maxing it out airflow wise.

The exact mapping between values varies depending on the MAF you're using, but this will at least give you an idea of what I mean. Note on the newer MAF's below that ~8600hz is about 150g/sec and 12,000 is about 450g/sec.