Where to start tuning

[00GTP]

Thanks Tom. I have already adjusted for my LS maf and injectors. I actually went with a ZO6 maf table. The LS1 table had my idle surging/stalling the engine.
I think my confusion lies within scaling the maf, tuning the injectors, SD tune, etc. People have said "you will run in OL with the wideband" Am i suppose to force the pcm into OL with a WB or what and what for??? Some people say tune the injectors not the maf, tune the maf not the VE. Just need to know where to begin. Like I said, if I go by either of the 2 "tuning guides", those direct me to tune mafless (SD) at first. If I disable my LS maf, my IAT sensor will also be disabled. I wired into the MAF. And I know IAT makes a difference with timing. I also know by way of scans my idle & cruise are pretty close, but WOT fueling is pig rich. That's where the tuning of the injectors gets me. What kinda changes are to be made there. I've got a conversion table, but the numbers seem way off compared to everyone elses tables.

[animuL]

You need to start with the MAf table that matches the model / year of the MAF sensor. Starting out with a different table is going to make things difficult. With the S1X cam you will have idle issues, but you dont use the MAF table to tune that out. The problem with using a different MAF table to begin with is say your MAF sensor was originally calibrated such that 11,500 hz is 480 g/s and say on the table you are running now 11,500 is 430 g/s. So now at WOT if you flow 480 g/s your MAF is at 11,500 and your PCM looks up that 11,500 on the table you put in and sees it as 430 g/s of air instead of 480 so it adds fuel for 430 and not fuel for 480 so it runs lean. So to begin with, your maf tables should always match the MAF sensor, from there you can make changes as needed to tune your individual setup.

You will use the wideband in open loop, but your PE should be kicking in at around 50% at lower rpms and 25% at higher rpms, so as soon as you go over those values you are in open loop and the wideband gives you accurate numbers. So there is no need to force it, it will go there when you need it.

Just as the MAf tables should initially be matched with the MAF sensor, the injector pulse widths should be matched with the injectors. Off the top of my head I forget the stock IPW numbers, but they are around 205 m/s I think and thats for 36# injectors. So if you plug in 42.5# injectors, then you are going up by 18%, meaning if you left the IPWs as they are your injectors would dump in 18% more fuel. Of course you dont want that, so what you do is bring the IPWs down by 18% so instead of 205 you run 168.1 m/s (AGAIN I DONT REMEMBER THE STOCK IPW SO THAT 168.1 MIGHT NOT BE RIGHT BUT THE MATH IS).

To be honest, I dont know much about SD tuning yet, but I think its just a backup for if the MAF fails.

The IAT does not effect timing on a stock tune, it only will effect timing if you have told it to. THere are tables in the PCM but they are all set to 0. The only time youd really want to add values to that is if you are installing a IAT timing knob to adjust timing n the fly.

Its hard to jump in to the middle of a tune especially if some of the key initial things like MAF table and IPWs haven't been set right (I'm not saying they aren't right, but thats something I just wouldn't know without looking). So anyway, my suggestion is take your stock program and get the right MAF tables for your MAF, set your IPWs 18% less than stock, put your PE at 11.6 and kick in at 50% on the lower rpms and 25% on the upper, make all the TM, tranny, and other misc changes you want. I think thats a good starting point and you can properly tune from there, but as of right now, if you have the wrong MAF tables and you just up and change those to what they should be, then your whole tune is off and its going to be a lot harder to get it right.

[slow6]

To be honest, I dont know much about SD tuning yet, but I think its just a backup for if the MAF fails.

You are correct sir. I am no expert though.

People have said "you will run in OL with the wideband" Am i suppose to force the pcm into OL with a WB or what and what for??? Some people say tune the injectors not the maf, tune the maf not the VE. .

You run your WB in Open loop to scale/recalibrate the maf. If you run it in closed loop the computer will make its own fueling changes which will screw up your maf tuning. Theres lots of ways to force it into OL. As ANIMUL said you can use PE which will automatically put you in OL. But dont forget to make sure your Idle/Cruising AFR is Stoich. I am a tune the maf not the ve kinda person.

If your running "pig rich at high throttle" thats easy to fix. You just change your AFR in PE.

[00GTP]

Animul & Slow6, thanks for the replies.
My MAF part # is used on Vettes and 6.0 trucks, so I started with the ZO6 table and have used an error % correction during my scans to scale it. And as I said, the idle was corrected when changing from the LS1 table to the LS6 vette table. The low HZ were set too high with the LS1. The injector table should be set close to correct, I'm using one of Rob Archers tables. But I know further adjustments to both tables are needed, but I guess the IFR scaling is questionable. How & why do you "scale" the IFR table. Animul, when you say IPW, how do ya change that.
As far as the OL, soundengineer looked at a scan after my wideband install and stated I was in closed loop. So my question is this: if using the wideband you basically want the pcm to stay out of adjusting your fueling and spark IF you have the tune on the money, correct? Then how do I keep the pcm in OL? Or did you answer that by saying to bring the PE mode down?

[animuL]

You dont need to do anything special to tune with the wideband or to keep it in open loop. You just do a log file for 20 minutes or so and everything from idle, and cruising to WOT. Then export the log file to csv and open it in excel. Sort by MAFF and then seperate the data into two seperate sheets, one for closed loop and one for open loop. You will want to tune for open loop first because it sets the base for your tune, everything else is just tweaking - so until its all tunes in, you can just throw away the closed loop data in the log file. Using the wideband, make sure that your AFR is right on (probably around 11.4-11.8:1) it should be close to what your commanded afr is. If thats off then you adjust the MAF table in whatever range is neccesary. So if its always right on 11.6:1 but say from 10,000-10,125 Hz its say 11.9:1, then that means you need to increase the g/s numbers in that range because its running lean because your MAF table just isn't 100% right yet - thats what you are doing is making your MAF table accurate to how much air is actually entering the engine. Once you get open loop all tuned in, then look at the closed loop operation and get your LFTs as close to 0% as possible. If you have an idle issue, then you can adjust your IPW or IFR where its needed.

[mtcrusan]

Dayday:
And I agree with that statement. The help files are just that, helpful if you know what that certain pid data does EXACTLY.
My problems are the same. The answers we get are sometimes very short as though we know what to do from there. I wouldn't be asking if I knew.
The guide for our V6 tuning is for those mildly modded cars. Everyone said get a wideband, but no one wants to "GUIDE" us thru the process. It is a different tuning beast than that of NB. All the "you're in closed loop, don't mess with the VE, do mess with the VE" is confusing. The LS guys have it made due to the quantity of tuners.
I need, hell WE v6 guys who have a wideband need, to start over from scratch with info on how to tune. The forum is for just that. No newbie could pick this tuner up and start tuning without alot of difficulty like I've ran into and I've had this for 2 years also.
C'mon GURUS, give us a hand. How about a wideband guide?????

Great comments! I agree totally.

[Russ K]

Check some of my posts about V6 tuning. I tune with a wideband in place of the stock O2 sensor in the rear exhaust manifold, so the car is in open loop. The ve table is only used if there is a maf dtc. I leave the ve table stock and rescale the maf table.

Russ Kemp

[00GTP]

I tune with a wideband in place of the stock O2 sensor in the rear exhaust manifold, so the car is in open loop.

Russ Kemp

This is a perfect example of the replies we get. Thank you Russ, but how is the car in open loop just bcuz you installed a WB? Don't take my comments wrong Russ, I really appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share. But a short reply like that can make for more, unnecessary questions.
I think I understand the whole WB tuning concept and I guess with trial and error, I'll get this thing figured out. I'm not looking for the easy way out, just more info so I don't go about this the wrong way.
Once again, thanks Russ and I look forward to any info you would like to share.

[00GTP]

Sort by MAFF and then seperate the data into two seperate sheets, one for closed loop and one for open loop. You will want to tune for open loop first because it sets the base for your tune, everything else is just tweaking - so until its all tunes in, you can just throw away the closed loop data in the log file.

But isn't open loop only WOT? If not, then do I use the scanner to get the PCM to run in OL? Confusion again - sorry.

Using the wideband, make sure that your AFR is right on (probably around 11.4-11.8:1) it should be close to what your commanded afr is.

Isn't commanded AFR set in the PCM? Where do I tell the pcm what I want the commanded AFR at?

If thats off then you adjust the MAF table in whatever range is neccesary. So if its always right on 11.6:1 but say from 10,000-10,125 Hz its say 11.9:1, then that means you need to increase the g/s numbers in that range because its running lean because your MAF table just isn't 100% right yet - thats what you are doing is making your MAF table accurate to how much air is actually entering the engine.

Understood.

Once you get open loop all tuned in, then look at the closed loop operation and get your LFTs as close to 0% as possible.

LT's are adjusted in the VE? If so, some people say don't adjust VE. And if thats the case, then where.

If you have an idle issue, then you can adjust your IPW or IFR where its needed.

How do you go about adjusting those PIDS to be rich/lean or idle well? I've got my idle & cruise AFR pretty close to 14.7 by maff adjusting.

[Russ K]

This is a perfect example of the replies we get. Thank you Russ, but how is the car in open loop just bcuz you installed a WB? Don't take my comments wrong Russ, I really appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share. But a short reply like that can make for more, unnecessary questions.
I think I understand the whole WB tuning concept and I guess with trial and error, I'll get this thing figured out. I'm not looking for the easy way out, just more info so I don't go about this the wrong way.
Once again, thanks Russ and I look forward to any info you would like to share.

Once the stock O2 sensor 1 is unplugged, the car will be in open loop. Reset the fuel trims after flashing if they are not 0.

Russ Kemp

[00GTP]

Once the stock O2 sensor 1 is unplugged, the car will be in open loop. Reset the fuel trims after flashing if they are not 0.

Russ Kemp

Gotcha Russ. I run the LC-1 and it is wired to simulate the NB. In fact, one scan soundengineer looked at said I was still in closed loop. So I would guess that the simulation isn't allowing OL until WOT. And MeentsSS even said he runs in OL and with a good tune his car "does what he tells it to when he tell it". That's what I want when this is tuned properly. I don't want the pcm adjusting anything if my target is on, right?

[Russ K]

When I tune a V6, I install the wideband in place of the O2 sensor 1. The factory O2 harness remains unplugged while tuning the car. The wideband is hooked up to the wideband controller & the EIO. Now the car is in open loop while tuning the maf using the afr error %. Like I mentioned in some of my other posts, you need to set the base afr vs coolant temp to what ever you what the commanded afr to be. Then set the pe enrich fuel adder vs. time table to 0.
Set the pe delay to 0 if it isn't already. Check to make sure that the pe enrich fuel adder vs. tps table is also all 0's. Now the commanded afr will stay at what ever you set it at. I would use 12.25 - 12.5 afr on a boosted car and 13.0 on a NA car.
After the tune is done, I reinstall the stock O2 sensor and plug it back in.

Russ Kemp

[animuL]

Well it look slike Russ answered most of your questions, however 12.25-12.5 afr is pretty lean for what most GTP guys run. Most stay in the mid 11 range, 11.4-11.8 for best results. GTPs love to chip pistons so running more on the rich side is a good idea, just never run too rich or you can have problems that way as well. LTFTs are adjusted with the MAF table, and if you use the method that Russ posted, replacing your stock O2 sensor with the wideband, then you should be able to get everything tuned to the proper afr so that once you plug the stock sensor back in, your LTFTs should stay pretty close to 0, if they dont then you could either have a bad O2 sensor or its just that inaccurate, either way trust the wideband over the narrow.

Even if your a/f ratio is reading 14.7:1 at idle, its not neccessarily right, even with a wideband... with a big cam you have lots of valve overlap and extra gas entering the exhaust, the O2 sensor will read this and think you are running richer than what you actually are so it will pull fuel out until it thinks its right. So then it reads 14.7:1 but its actually way leaner, so adding fuel for idling will counter act this and smooth out your idle.

[00GTP]

Very nice and very well received. How about this though = if I have the LC-1 hardwired in for the NB, just cut out until tune is done and then rewire? Or better yet, install a quick connect of some type for future tuning needs? That won't screw with the LC-1 having the NB wiring disconnected, will it?
Thanks a ton for the info Russ. I will be using it very soon and let ya' see some scans if interested. Well, that is after I put new rod/main bearings in

[00GTP]

Well it look slike Russ answered most of your questions, however 12.25-12.5 afr is pretty lean for what most GTP guys run. Most stay in the mid 11 range, 11.4-11.8 for best results. GTPs love to chip pistons so running more on the rich side is a good idea, just never run too rich or you can have problems that way as well. LTFTs are adjusted with the MAF table, and if you use the method that Russ posted, replacing your stock O2 sensor with the wideband, then you should be able to get everything tuned to the proper afr so that once you plug the stock sensor back in, your LTFTs should stay pretty close to 0, if they dont then you could either have a bad O2 sensor or its just that inaccurate, either way trust the wideband over the narrow.

Thanks Tom. What if I run the LC-1 in place of the NB all the time? I don't plan on running the NB at all, it's just being simulated. Check post above for same question.

[slow6]

im pretty sure that would make it open loop all the time... please correct me if i'm wrong

[00GTP]

im pretty sure that would make it open loop all the time... please correct me if i'm wrong

Like I've said, some HPT gurus have seen a few scans of mine with the wideband and they commented that I was in closed loop. So that is a good question. Does the WB wired in to simulate the NB put us in OL all the time or not?

[Russ K]

Never had a reason to wire a wb to simulate a nb. But if your wb is hooked up to simulate a wb, then yes you will be in closed loop. When the O2 is unplugged you will be in open loop. Just tune the afr to match the commanded and reinstall the stock O2 sensor when the tune is done.

Russ Kemp

[Russ K]

Never had a reason to wire a wb to simulate a nb. But if your wb is hooked up to simulate a wb, then yes you will be in closed loop. When the O2 is unplugged you will be in open loop. Just tune the afr to match the commanded and reinstall the stock O2 sensor when the tune is done.

Russ Kemp

Typo, I meant to simulate a NB not a WB in the second sentence.

Russ Kemp

[kabbott]

FYI if you have your WB set to Sim NB you may leave it connected and command open loop with the VCM controls in scanner...VCM controls>fuel and spark>closed loop>off

My ? is if i go back to NB after tuning and it doesn't match WB whats the fix,I know Its still right under PE but otherwise it will just correct to match stock O2's.

Do any v6 OS Cal's support the O2 switchpoint changes?