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Thread: 2017 Fusion Sport, lots of limiting in low gear

  1. #1

    2017 Fusion Sport, lots of limiting in low gear

    Take a look at this stock read from a 2017 Fusion sport 2.7L ecoboost, as well as the log. You will see very little boost and very little torque desired in low gear. This makes these cars VERY lack luster from a dead stop. Based on the log, I would have to assume this is a gear based torque limitation, but I dont see any such table . I have played with it a bit, and got about 17-18psi boost with it in all gears accept 1st. But I am also seeing a random over boost code P0274. Ill post both the original log, original tune, and the one that I have been fighting the over boost with. See if anyone has any input.
    Last edited by Sweet35th; 05-22-2017 at 02:51 PM.

  2. #2
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    Try increasing pedal map ratio table in the OSS that first gear would see at 79.7 and 90 % to the 1.35 the other gears would see.

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    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet35th View Post
    Take a look at this stock read from a 2017 Fusion sport 2.7L ecoboost, as well as the log. You will see very little boost and very little torque desired in low gear. This makes these cars VERY lack luster from a dead stop. Based on the log, I would have to assume this is a gear based torque limitation, but I dont see any such table . I have played with it a bit, and got about 17-18psi boost with it in all gears accept 1st. But I am also seeing a random over boost code P0274. Ill post both the original log, original tune, and the one that I have been fighting the over boost with. See if anyone has any input.
    Let me look into this.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

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    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    I agree with murfie. I don't see anything special on these. I'd play with that Pedal Map Ratio table to see if it corrects the issue.
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners View Post
    I agree with murfie. I don't see anything special on these. I'd play with that Pedal Map Ratio table to see if it corrects the issue.
    I will give that a try. I will try to post up a good log for the custom tune file too. See if I can catch where it sets and over boost code. Ill keep this updated, and post the final tune and logs.

  6. #6
    If you guys look at this tune, and this log. Do you see anything that could be causing it to set a P0234 overboost? I know it is "Torque Air Limit Source Insufficient Fuel" and am still working on that, but I dont see that setting a P0234. I did see that I was seeing torque values that exceeded my Maximum Torque Limits, under Torque Management, I have since increased those but have not had a chance to recheck, again though I don't see that setting the P0234. I have all the boost/air flow limit increased that I could find... Other than that issue, this thing really moves out.
    Last edited by Sweet35th; 05-22-2017 at 02:51 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet35th View Post
    If you guys look at this tune, and this log. Do you see anything that could be causing it to set a P0234 overboost? I know it is "Torque Air Limit Source Insufficient Fuel" and am still working on that, but I dont see that setting a P0234. I did see that I was seeing torque values that exceeded my Maximum Torque Limits, under Torque Management, I have since increased those but have not had a chance to recheck, again though I don't see that setting the P0234. I have all the boost/air flow limit increased that I could find... Other than that issue, this thing really moves out.
    Yes, your TIP Actual > TIP Desired for your set amount of time. This is the core of what triggers the overboost DTC. Get your TIP Actual in line with your TIP Desired with your wastegate control and you wont have that issue. Your wastegate tables are all sorts of crazy. If you're stock turbo, I'd recommend sticking with the stock values for them, and working from there. It looks like you created your own version of them that doesn't really make much sense to me.

    If your TIP Actual < TIP Desired for a given condition, THEN you can consider adjusting the setup in that small area, not the whole map at once as you have.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugasu View Post
    Yes, your TIP Actual > TIP Desired for your set amount of time. This is the core of what triggers the overboost DTC. Get your TIP Actual in line with your TIP Desired with your wastegate control and you wont have that issue. Your wastegate tables are all sorts of crazy. If you're stock turbo, I'd recommend sticking with the stock values for them, and working from there. It looks like you created your own version of them that doesn't really make much sense to me.

    If your TIP Actual < TIP Desired for a given condition, THEN you can consider adjusting the setup in that small area, not the whole map at once as you have.
    Thank you for the input. A lot of those values were changed as a learning experiment, that I either forgot to change back, or I posted the wrong tune, regardless Ill take your advice and stick with stock for now.

    I will put the stock read in the tune repository. I removed the other attachments until I have a known good file. Don't like the idea of stuff floating around that does not work.
    Last edited by Sweet35th; 05-22-2017 at 03:26 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Try increasing pedal map ratio table in the OSS that first gear would see at 79.7 and 90 % to the 1.35 the other gears would see.
    That worked, thank you and Eric. I had it in my head that it was for sure a trans torque reduction item. Its a hoot in 1st gear now.

    Bugasu, thank you for the input. I put my turbo controls back to stock, yet raised some limits. I set my overboost TIP threshold to 20kpa, and dialed back my Driver Demand tables a bit. There are some times when Actual is still greater than desired TIP, but it remains well within the threshold, maybe seeing a momentary max of 8kpa high for a moment. Car runs out hard. I still trip a "insuficient fuel" driver demand source, but fuel pressure holds right at commanded and it has so far had no effect on the car. Im posting the tune file, and a manual 3rd gear pull and a WOT from a stop log.

    I have all of the temp/flange limits still in place and will keep them that way. I am seeing a consistant 31.5-32psi MAP pressure which is 3psi over stock, and have 2 more degrees of timing in it with no Knock Retard. Very happy with it. PULLS HARD especially from 45mph up.

    Thank all of you for your help. Feel free to use this as your own and improve it, as this is a first draft of a tune for one of these, and you will see it did not require very much to net these results.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  10. #10
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    I see your throttle closing and thats one way ford controlled boost, some people want it that way as it give a smooth power delivery, while others want the waste gate to control the boost as it makes the car feel more powerful. I'm going to post a screen shot comparing your logs to your torque/ inverse tables that show why your throttle is closing to meet the torque and load. The indicated torque is not to bad but the load drops off after 3000 right when your desired throttle angle drops.

    TTL and LTT throttle.PNG
    Last edited by murfie; 05-23-2017 at 01:38 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    I see your throttle closing and thats one way ford controlled boost, some people want it that way as it give a smooth power delivery, while others want the waste gate to control the boost as it makes the car feel more powerful. I'm going to post a screen shot comparing your logs to your torque/ inverse tables that show why your throttle is closing to meet the torque and load. The indicated torque is not to bad but the load drops off after 3000 right when your desired throttle angle drops.

    TTL and LTT throttle.PNG
    Thank you for pointing that out. On the EcoBoost F150s I have done, I have ran them both ways. Waste gate control and TB control. On them, I liked the aggressive feel of having the waste gate control, however it seemed harder to control low RPM heavy load boost spikes. I am sure with more time it may have been able to be corrected, but there is still always the mechanical function of a small turbo spooling fast and having to wait for the waste gate control to react. It seems with throttle control the PCM can limit the boost spike more smoothly. It seems to produce a much nicer power curve on the dyno, also turbo seem to remain more efficient when not constantly trying to recover from waste gates dropping exhaust flow.. More of an option thing.

    This fusion I never tried to control it with the waste gate. Not because I did not want to, but because the power delivery came on so smooth and powerful. This thing really feels nice when it pulls from around 2800rpm through redline.. If I ever get chance to put it on the dyno, I will try to dial in the torque and inverse tables to see if power can be picked up up top. Based on the way it held boost through redline, I do not know if there would be any gains at this modification/boost level by changing them.

  12. #12
    Potential Tuner auttomotive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet35th View Post
    Thank you for pointing that out. On the EcoBoost F150s I have done, I have ran them both ways. Waste gate control and TB control. On them, I liked the aggressive feel of having the waste gate control, however it seemed harder to control low RPM heavy load boost spikes. I am sure with more time it may have been able to be corrected, but there is still always the mechanical function of a small turbo spooling fast and having to wait for the waste gate control to react. It seems with throttle control the PCM can limit the boost spike more smoothly. It seems to produce a much nicer power curve on the dyno, also turbo seem to remain more efficient when not constantly trying to recover from waste gates dropping exhaust flow.. More of an option thing.

    This fusion I never tried to control it with the waste gate. Not because I did not want to, but because the power delivery came on so smooth and powerful. This thing really feels nice when it pulls from around 2800rpm through redline.. If I ever get chance to put it on the dyno, I will try to dial in the torque and inverse tables to see if power can be picked up up top. Based on the way it held boost through redline, I do not know if there would be any gains at this modification/boost level by changing them.
    Hi Sweet

    I bought last week my hptuners Pro, so, really new into the system and possibilities.
    Another great appointment for throttle control boost is the transmission fatigue or broken parts, lass suddenly torque more your transmission will, while drive ability is maintained.
    Last edited by auttomotive; 07-28-2017 at 09:15 PM.

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    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet35th View Post
    That worked, thank you and Eric. I had it in my head that it was for sure a trans torque reduction item. Its a hoot in 1st gear now.
    So the pedal map ratio changes that Eric identified were the root cause for the lackluster performance in 1st gear launches? I finally got a Fusion Sport and it just bogs off the line. I want to keep the stock boost levels and don't want to change anything other than make the car more lively in 1st gear. I read Lidio's testing of his 2.7 F-150 and how no matter what he did, there was an issue with boost levels below 13 mph. I believe that is kind of the same thing I'm experiencing with the 2.7 in the Fusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    So the pedal map ratio changes that Eric identified were the root cause for the lackluster performance in 1st gear launches? I finally got a Fusion Sport and it just bogs off the line. I want to keep the stock boost levels and don't want to change anything other than make the car more lively in 1st gear. I read Lidio's testing of his 2.7 F-150 and how no matter what he did, there was an issue with boost levels below 13 mph. I believe that is kind of the same thing I'm experiencing with the 2.7 in the Fusion.
    Hey Metroplex I'm in the same boat as you with a 2.7 F-150, and from what I've found in research I believe it is related to 2.7's not necessarily vehicle model. I've pmed Lidio and Eric but still haven't found why the limiting is happening (holidays slowed things down a bit). I don't believe it's the pedal map ratio as my torque requested will be over 100 ft/lbs higher than engine brake torque, likewise my airload from tq request will be ~2.2 while actual will be closer to 1.5, and no limits at all show on any of the sources I can log. If you want I can pm you the tune I'm working off, with a few logs showing the ghost limit in effect, when I have a free minute tomorrow.

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Did you try Sweeth35th's tune above or his pedal map ratio settings? I know your logs don't show this, but I kept thinking about how the Fusion felt during hard launches, and the pedal map ratio might be the culprit because it seems to affect the driver demand. The OSS for 1st gear up to 4000 RPM is like under 1000 RPM. Those values at mid to full throttle are below 1.00 and I know if I gently launch to get up to speed , the car seems to pull harder. But if I just powerbrake launch and go WOT asap, it bogs badly. Lidio had mentioned a setting that is only found in SCT that Eric didn't seem to want to add to VCM Editor.
    Last edited by metroplex; 01-07-2018 at 07:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Did you try Sweeth35th's tune above or his pedal map ratio settings? I know your logs don't show this, but I kept thinking about how the Fusion felt during hard launches, and the pedal map ratio might be the culprit because it seems to affect the driver demand. The OSS for 1st gear up to 4000 RPM is like under 1000 RPM. Those values at mid to full throttle are below 1.00 and I know if I gently launch to get up to speed , the car seems to pull harder. But if I just powerbrake launch and go WOT asap, it bogs badly. Lidio had mentioned a setting that is only found in SCT that Eric didn't seem to want to add to VCM Editor.
    I have tried changing the OSS modifier, as well as several different torque tables in the transmission and have yet to find what is causing the limit. I think it is going to be something like 'exit speed' because if you launch from a stop, then at about 15 mph lift briefly and go WOT again (should take less than 1/10th of a second) then 1st gear acts like every other. On the other hand if you leave it floored for the whole gear it stays limited until the shift to second. Here's screen shots of some relevant info, I'll pm you a link to the full files.

    1st Gear Limit Low Speed Start.png

    1st Gear Limit Rolling Start.png

    1st Gear Limit Tables.png

  17. #17
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    SCT has that setting, I think stock was 13 mph. This was the original thread from last year, it looks like HPTuners still hasn't added it but SCT has it available:

    https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...-gear-launches
    Last edited by metroplex; 01-07-2018 at 01:07 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    SCT has that setting, I think stock was 13 mph. This was the original thread from last year, it looks like HPTuners still hasn't added it but SCT has it available:

    https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...-gear-launches
    That exit speed has nothing to do with this particular issue. That is meant for use with engine over-temp only. Puggyberra if you are still having an issue please post your datalogs and tune file so we can continue to investigate!
    -Braden
    HPT Vehicle Engineer
    '18 Mustang GT - 10R80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Braden@HPTuners View Post
    That exit speed has nothing to do with this particular issue. That is meant for use with engine over-temp only. Puggyberra if you are still having an issue please post your datalogs and tune file so we can continue to investigate!
    Braden thanks for following up on this thread. I was working with Eric on this issue and he seems to have found the solution. He said there was a parameter that hasn't been defined yet, once that is added to the beta the issue should be resolved.

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braden@HPTuners View Post
    That exit speed has nothing to do with this particular issue. That is meant for use with engine over-temp only. Puggyberra if you are still having an issue please post your datalogs and tune file so we can continue to investigate!
    Ok, sounds good but this has been an issue for well over a year with the 2.7L EcoBoost (F-series and Fusion). I'm eager to see what you and Eric have found.