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Thread: 2017 Fusion Sport, lots of limiting in low gear

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Ok, sounds good but this has been an issue for well over a year with the 2.7L EcoBoost (F-series and Fusion). I'm eager to see what you and Eric have found.
    There is an air-rate limit added to help smooth how fast boost comes on for smoothness, and that's what appears to be limiting the F-Series pickup trucks. Your air-rate is fastest in 1st gear typically as it's your quickest pull.

    The F150 has this calibrated in, but all of the Fusion definitions I've seen have this calibrated out. If you could get us a log and tune of it happening on your Fusion, we can take a look and see if there's yet another thing in the way!
    If its not broke, just give it time.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven@HPTuners View Post
    There is an air-rate limit added to help smooth how fast boost comes on for smoothness, and that's what appears to be limiting the F-Series pickup trucks. Your air-rate is fastest in 1st gear typically as it's your quickest pull.

    The F150 has this calibrated in, but all of the Fusion definitions I've seen have this calibrated out. If you could get us a log and tune of it happening on your Fusion, we can take a look and see if there's yet another thing in the way!
    Steven, has this already been added for the f150 through the beta or is it something that will be added at a later time?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02reaper View Post
    Steven, has this already been added for the f150 through the beta or is it something that will be added at a later time?
    As far as I’m tracking it’s not in the beta yet, but should be shortly. Eric sent me a file with the setting changed and that removed the limit in first gear, but there is no parameter in the beta yet to change what Eric changed in the file he sent me.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puggyberra View Post
    As far as I’m tracking it’s not in the beta yet, but should be shortly. Eric sent me a file with the setting changed and that removed the limit in first gear, but there is no parameter in the beta yet to change what Eric changed in the file he sent me.
    Did it fix the issue? I too, have been waiting for this to get resolved.

  5. #25
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Puggyberra View Post
    As far as I?m tracking it?s not in the beta yet, but should be shortly. Eric sent me a file with the setting changed and that removed the limit in first gear, but there is no parameter in the beta yet to change what Eric changed in the file he sent me.
    That's fantastic that the issue for the F150's has been found. I too, have been waiting for this to get resolved. Hopefully it will be in beta soon...

  6. #26
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    New Beta up with the fix for the 2.7Ls. Desired Air Mass Error for Torque Under Delivery. Max it out, and have fun :-)
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  7. #27
    Advanced Tuner LastPlace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric@HPTuners View Post
    New Beta up with the fix for the 2.7Ls. Desired Air Mass Error for Torque Under Delivery. Max it out, and have fun :-)
    thank you

  8. #28
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I can't post logs for the Fusion Sport yet, but seeing how the fastest tuned Fusion Sports are only running 12.7-12.8 in the 1/4 mile, there's some work to be done with those tunes and I suspect it is the lag while taking off.

  9. #29
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Just an update, it still looks like there is a locked parameter preventing me from requesting more than 406 ft-lb, as a result this limits my airload and boost. I reported it to HPTuners but haven't heard back. The F-150 owners shouldn't have a problem with the 2.7 because their trans parameters are all unlocked. It's just the Fusion Sport and possibly Ford Edge Sport.

  10. #30
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Steve or Eric, is this in your engineering queue? Drag racing season opening day is coming soon in Southeast Michigan. It'd be nice to be able to request more than 406 ft-lb of desired torque.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    Steve or Eric, is this in your engineering queue? Drag racing season opening day is coming soon in Southeast Michigan. It'd be nice to be able to request more than 406 ft-lb of desired torque.
    Nothing in my queue relating to this. I've been doing less Ford as of late. Did you send a ticket in for it?
    If its not broke, just give it time.

  12. #32
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven@HPTuners View Post
    Nothing in my queue relating to this. I've been doing less Ford as of late. Did you send a ticket in for it?
    Yes, 122047, 121999. Corey said he forwarded it to the engineers on 26 MAR? Honestly, I think it is just a few trans torque limiter tables that are still locked. The transmission is the same as the ones in the Explorer Sport and Taurus SHO (6F55) and those have several trans limiters defined. Puggybear set his 6R80 limiters to 406 ft-lb to simulate my issue, and he got the same airloads/boost/spark/torque outputs.
    Last edited by metroplex; 04-17-2018 at 05:15 PM.

  13. #33
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    I still think it’s possible the limiting isn’t in the transmission. The max torque tables under torque management max at 406 ft/lbs, the issue could be stemming from an inability to override those tables currently.

    Honestly it seems to me less likely there are transmission torque limiters. We’ve essentially verified you are being limited to 406 ft/lbs, but I doubt Ford would of set any values to that in the transmission. Without being able to see the actual software and data in the pcm I can’t say anything for sure though.

  14. #34
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    The reason I suggest the trans limiters is because half the tables are missing in the Fusion Sport files. The same transmission on the SHO has a bunch of the tables for torque limiting and torque ramp rate limiters. If you open the Fusion Sport or Edge Sport files and look at Trans -> Torque Management, and then look at the Taurus SHO file, or even your F-150 file, you'll see that the latter have a lot of extra tables. I believe the one where you adjusted yours to 406 ft-lb isn't available on the Fusion Sport file. I've combed through my file and can't find any other places where there'd be a limit on desired torque unless it hasn't been defined yet.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    The reason I suggest the trans limiters is because half the tables are missing in the Fusion Sport files. The same transmission on the SHO has a bunch of the tables for torque limiting and torque ramp rate limiters. If you open the Fusion Sport or Edge Sport files and look at Trans -> Torque Management, and then look at the Taurus SHO file, or even your F-150 file, you'll see that the latter have a lot of extra tables. I believe the one where you adjusted yours to 406 ft-lb isn't available on the Fusion Sport file. I've combed through my file and can't find any other places where there'd be a limit on desired torque unless it hasn't been defined yet.
    I’m with you that the transmission does appear conspicuously absent of torque limiters. I’m just trying to come up with alternatives if that’s not the answer. As it is right now your transmission’s torque management tab looks more like what you’d expect to see on a manual transmission vehicle.

  16. #36
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    You know how they say a picture is worth a thousand words...

    2014 SHO, 2016 Edge Sport 2.7L EB, 2016 F-150 2.7L EB, and 2017 Fusion Sport 2.7L EB.

    The engines/transmission on the Edge Sport and Fusion Sport should be identical, and there is still a debate on the F-150 2.7 engine (I think the engine is the same, turbos are either different altogether like BW vs Garrett or they differ slightly with different turbine wheel and housing orientation/packaging).

    But notice how the 6F55 on the SHO and Edge Sport have more tables than the Fusion Sport, and the F-150 has more tables as well. It even looks like the Edge Sport is missing a few parameters as well.

    I was curious and opened those limiter tables in the Edge Sport and they only go to a max of 391 ft-lb. It's fairly close to 406 ft-lb?? But the tables taper off quickly towards 312 ft-lb. So those tables still need to be raised, but there may be another parameter limiting my max desired torque to 406 ft-lb.

    Fusion Sport.jpg

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by metroplex View Post
    You know how they say a picture is worth a thousand words...

    2014 SHO, 2016 Edge Sport 2.7L EB, 2016 F-150 2.7L EB, and 2017 Fusion Sport 2.7L EB.

    The engines/transmission on the Edge Sport and Fusion Sport should be identical, and there is still a debate on the F-150 2.7 engine (I think the engine is the same, turbos are either different altogether like BW vs Garrett or they differ slightly with different turbine wheel and housing orientation/packaging).

    But notice how the 6F55 on the SHO and Edge Sport have more tables than the Fusion Sport, and the F-150 has more tables as well. It even looks like the Edge Sport is missing a few parameters as well.

    I was curious and opened those limiter tables in the Edge Sport and they only go to a max of 391 ft-lb. It's fairly close to 406 ft-lb?? But the tables taper off quickly towards 312 ft-lb. So those tables still need to be raised, but there may be another parameter limiting my max desired torque to 406 ft-lb.

    Fusion Sport.jpg
    The rate limiting may be affecting you, but it won't be causing the reduction in maximum power. I played around with it a little bit, primarily what you'll see with rate limiting is if you locked the transmission in second at something like 3500 rpms (high enough for the turbo to spool almost instantly) the rate limiting will give you a gradual onset of power. It could even feel like turbo lag, but its tends to be very linear as opposed to turbo lag generally being more sudden. I imagine you discovered that with the SHO as well though.

    I am surprised the SHO doesn't have maximum torque tables in the transmission but the edge sport does. Regardless its still very possible the FSport does not have torque max limit tables in the transmission and the 406 max you're seeing is coming from the limit tables in engine -> torque management. Of course even if you do get the 406 max raised but still have the rate limit (from my testing) you can still wind up limited for around half of second and all of first just due to the rate limiting.

  18. #38
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    Thanks to yesterday's update, I'm able to increase the Max Torque Clip from 406 ft-lb to 550 ft-lb. I noticed the Edge Sport has the same limit set to 406 ft-lb stock, but the F-150s all had it set to 550 ft-lb stock.

    The problem I'm facing now is that I'm somehow being limited to 34 psi Desired TIP. I've raised the Max TIP PSI, and Max Desired TIP PSI settings but they don't impact that Desired TIP limit of 34 psi. My ETC/Desired Brake Torque goes higher than 406 ft-lb, but it still kind of peaks around 460 ft-lb. I don't believe it is now a torque limiter, because my TIP graph output is almost a straight line at WOT so something is keeping it there.

    Any thoughts?

  19. #39
    Senior Tuner metroplex's Avatar
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    I figured it out. The Outlet Pressure setting is about 6.75 psi more than your MAP pressure limit. This held true for 1-4th gears, but I think about 4th gear or 5th gear, my MAP was 2 psi higher.

    Is there a different setting for each of the gears?

    I also noticed the stock trans settings are very different from the SHO's, even though they share the 6F55 transaxle. The biggest difference was the 1-2 torque transfer times. The Fusion Sport had 1250 ms, which is 1.25 seconds!! The stock Fusion Sport trans settings also cause massive hesitation and sometimes flare up during shifting, either part or wide open.

  20. #40
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    Have you checked it’s 100% tied to gear and possibly not related to charge temp? I know there are multiple limits that will start kicking in when charge temps get high (from running through successive gears). if it’s essentially an air load limit per gear though that’s a little more odd.