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Thread: 2013 boss 302 mapped points changing during wot pull in op

  1. #1
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    2013 boss 302 mapped points changing during wot pull in op

    Perhaps i just dont have the understanding i need for the mapped points on this car. as you can see in the pull around 45k-46k rpm the mapped point weight changes to allow mp8 to have as much as 41.7%. vct scheduled stays in OP for the whole pull. I know it is related to the base mapped points vct angle table and that the cam angle at that part of the pull lines up with that angle for mp8. but as you can also see it pulls timing away because of how much weight mp8 is getting. Now i no i could just go in and disable mps or even copy and paste the upper load section of my borderline op table into mp or all the other mps. but i am sure there is another way and i'm seeking a little guidance on how to keep it from pulling timing from other tables and not look at them during OP.

  2. #2
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    Transmission torque management. Raise your torque truncation values and it should stop trying to blend into stability mode to reduce engine power.

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    Trans>Torque Management>

    Raise the value for every gear to 700lbs and you shouldn't have this issue

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    Is the throttle really closing? What do you guys like to log to show what the throttle is actually doing vs. what the pedal position is?

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    Throttle Position vs Throttle Position Desired will show throttle closing. This particular log didn't show it closing the throttle but if you notice as soon as the Torque Source goes to Trans Trunc it pulls weight away from the OP Mapped Points to reduce torque.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ridenrunwv View Post
    Throttle Position vs Throttle Position Desired will show throttle closing. This particular log didn't show it closing the throttle but if you notice as soon as the Torque Source goes to Trans Trunc it pulls weight away from the OP Mapped Points to reduce torque.
    Alright, that's what I've been using to log.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDMB View Post
    Alright, that's what I've been using to log.
    Yeah I log throttle source, throttle position and throttle angle. Throttle angle being the one that actually shows you the angle, when the ECM commands it to close you see it go down along with TPS.

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    Thanks all for your review. I honestly appreciate it and can't even make an excuse for how I didn't notice the torque source changing.

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    Also honestly since this is an na Bolt on car I didnt even think to adjust to trans torque management which I always do on a blower car.

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    Well first you try the obvious/ easy with the trans torque truncation and see if the problem goes away.

    Instead of having the fuel economy/ drive ability distance table at 7 in the highest loads make it 7.5. Also after 4500 keep it at 7.5 instead of a drop to a 1.5 distance. add a 7-8 to the snap to line. Hopefully that will prevent it from being able to use stability(TQ / traction control) or emissions(any time your in OL enrichment) distances and stay on the OP snap to point when cam angles fall behind desired cam angles. It should also give a better transition from fuel economy to OP cam angles.
    Last edited by murfie; 05-28-2017 at 02:12 AM.

  12. #12
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    I tried a lot of ways to get this to stop from happening and nothing seemed to work. I make the spark tables at OP/WOT loads the same in the bottom rows.

    I'm all ears if you can get it to stop doing this though. cause its plagued my OCD for a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Well first you try the obvious/ easy with the trans torque truncation and see if the problem goes away.

    Instead of having the fuel economy/ drive ability distance table at 7 in the highest loads make it 7.5. Also after 4500 keep it at 7.5 instead of a drop to a 1.5 distance. add a 7-8 to the snap to line. Hopefully that will prevent it from being able to use stability(TQ / traction control) or emissions(any time your in OL enrichment) distances and stay on the OP snap to point when cam angles fall behind desired cam angles. It should also give a better transition from fuel economy to OP cam angles.
    I will give this a try but still seems very hard to grasp the snap to point and snap to line I hope you will either share here or in the other thread that I asked about it your definitions and methodology for HDFX logic

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    That is the thread that I originally asked for clarification on his explanation.
    The defining snap to point and snap to line are what I am having issues understanding fully. Also how the pcm uses them to follow a progression or move weight around. For example I don't understand entirely how making the above change's will in theory correct my problem with this car. But a proper definition of the terms and their roles in the mapped points weighting will go a long way

  16. #16
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    Snap to points are points with more influence on cam angles. If angles are near a snap to point they will just be pulled to the mapped point rather than be in between mapped points. Yours all fall at the end of lines so you don't see their influence much. In a 2015+ you see MP 25 being a snap to point influence the WOT cam angles to follow the OP angles with out weight in the OP mapped point.

    Snap to line table are line segments from mapped point A to mapped point B. These segments describe a distance. a point can not have distance but two points can describe a distance. that distance is used in the different modes arrays to command MPs and lines between MPs.

    If you plot out all your mapped points on a graph and plot out your OP commanded cam angles you will see MP 8 is the closest MP and that is why the weight shifts to it mostly. The weight is shifting as one or more of the other modes is enabled and blending with the OP mode. You also see weight shift at 5550 to 5750RPMs(mp7) and around 7300 PRMs(mp9). Torque control or traction control usually move weight to a lower and lower mode until torque is less than maximum or traction is regained. If mode transitions are smooth it will go to drivability then fuel economy and finally it can get all the way to stability mode in its attempts to limit power. If the distances in drivability and fuel economy modes are higher than stability and emissions modes can get to then they cant be used. Emissions mode is enabled by any OL fuel modes. Its distance is dependent on engine coolant temp and engine RPM. The stability array only has distance 0 to 6 and emissions has 0 to 4.

    Because of where your weights shift and having both drivability and fuel economy at a low distance at higher RPM/high load its hard to tell if your weights shifting because of TQ/traction control or emissions reduction or some combination of both. Seeing as you are not getting torque limits any more its most likely emission reduction mode blending.

    Traction control is usually disabled on a dyno so VCT will not be affected by it like it would in a street pull when the rear tires slipped an unnoticeable amount but because of sensitive sensors the ECU notices it and can affect cam angles.

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    I made the recommended changes to the distance tables and snap to line table. But it still was doing it. So after many hours screwing around on the dyno what I eventually did was copy over all the roush os mp configs, snap to, distance, and enable tables which I was far more familiar with and it worked perfect. No more coming out of op and I was able to finish up vvt tuning. Car ended up making 414whp on my Mustang md150 chassis dyno. 75-77 degrees IATs, 28 degrees total advance. Jlt plastic intake, pypes catless xpipe and mbrp race catback system.

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    Post up your last non-Roush version and then the final version. Some comparison of the cam functions may help add some clarity to the MP logic for you.
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    I will later when I'm by the computer. What I really need is some advanced training on hdfx logic and function of the of the tables involved. I've been down to Florida for Sct training on coyote and am calibrator status dealer with them, I've completed the tuning school course on 05-15+ ford as well as ecoboost training and have even read front to back the cookbook several times. All tgid is over the course of the last couple years but really no where does an adequate job explaining how to understand and manipulate the tables so I'm left with a lot of guesstimation and trial and error process (which gets very lengthy) to achieve what I need to tune the cars right.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADuff321 View Post
    I will later when I'm by the computer. What I really need is some advanced training on hdfx logic and function of the of the tables involved. I've been down to Florida for Sct training on coyote and am calibrator status dealer with them, I've completed the tuning school course on 05-15+ ford as well as ecoboost training and have even read front to back the cookbook several times. All tgid is over the course of the last couple years but really no where does an adequate job explaining how to understand and manipulate the tables so I'm left with a lot of guesstimation and trial and error process (which gets very lengthy) to achieve what I need to tune the cars right.
    There's a whole lot of "how" in those books, but not too much "why", that, or I'm just too dense to pick up on it and see the relationships for myself. Then again, this stuff is really difficult to explain anyways.