Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: 2011 Camaro L99/LS3 - Boost/power limitations

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Portersville, Pa
    Posts
    289

    2011 Camaro L99/LS3 - Boost/power limitations

    Good afternoon!
    We recently purchased a 2011 Camaro SS and as we did in the Gen III Hemi world we are cautiously attempting to find the limitations of the stock L99/LS3. We have read many of the stories of 1000whp builds but we wont come close to that with our little 2.9 Whipple.

    So the question is - how far fueling/timing/boost can we push a stock bottom, stock head, stock head bolt/gasket L99/LS3 before it pops? VVT-3 cam dialed in for max torque. Kooks headers, converter, trans.

    We are running c16/meth injection and a 3" pulley. Currently making 17+PSI. The most difficult part so far was designing a system to overcome the belt slip with the 3" pulley and 6-rib belt. We have that issue solved.
    The runs look clean (no signs of detonation) and we are very conservative (in my opinion) on the timing. IAT's are getting a little warm (169 degrees in 4th at 6800).

    Any recommendations or advice?
    Intended use is summer daily and occasional 1/4 mile use - OK, more than occasional - so we will be build a forged short block eventually.
    Last edited by [email protected]; 06-02-2017 at 08:52 AM.

  2. #2
    have done 850whp on stock block, heads, head bolts, head gaskets, with the whipple.

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Portersville, Pa
    Posts
    289
    Quote Originally Posted by jc052685 View Post
    have done 850whp on stock block, heads, head bolts, head gaskets, with the whipple.
    How much boost? What were your IAT's through the traps and how much WOT timing 4-7000 rpm?

  4. #4
    don't you have slippage problem at 17psi?

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Portersville, Pa
    Posts
    289
    Quote Originally Posted by avido View Post
    don't you have slippage problem at 17psi?
    Not anymore! With our custom 6 rib pulley system we believe we have solved the belt slip issues (idea copied from what we did in the Gen III Hemi world).
    Assuming continued testing is successful we will be marketing the system. So far initial testing on our dyno and limited street driving has yielded excellent results.
    As I mentioned in the original post belt slip was our biggest obstacle to overcome so far.
    Switching to a Nick Williams 102mm TB and hoping to see some more boost. We have been told that the stock TB is a restriction at this boost level.
    Then to the track to see what the ET/MPH shows.

    Still looking for any advice from those with experience here.
    Special thanks to GHuggins for feedback via PM - it is greatly appreciated!
    Last edited by [email protected]; 06-02-2017 at 08:34 AM.

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner NJ_Phil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Flanders nj
    Posts
    283
    I did a few pulls on my stock LS3 bottom end at 17-18psi, AFR = 11.4, spark = 9 on meth, Centrifugal on a 6 rib, HPE flip drive. Didn't see any knock but felt like I was driving a time bomb and only a matter of time until something grenaded. You seem to be leaning towards a forged bottom end so I recommend you start ordering parts ASAP

    Just my opinion
    2012 C6 Base, Kooks 1-7/8" LT, Catted, NPP
    Novi 1500SL, 10% OD IW, Big Blower Cam, Flip Drive, 2x Alky, ID1000
    Nitto NT05R 305x19, 255x18 on CCW T10s
    Self built and tuned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kod2UTqrVwM

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Portersville, Pa
    Posts
    289
    Quote Originally Posted by NJ_Phil View Post
    I did a few pulls on my stock LS3 bottom end at 17-18psi, AFR = 11.4, spark = 9 on meth, Centrifugal on a 6 rib, HPE flip drive. Didn't see any knock but felt like I was driving a time bomb and only a matter of time until something grenaded. You seem to be leaning towards a forged bottom end so I recommend you start ordering parts ASAP

    Just my opinion
    Thanks for the reply. Did you ever run your car at the track? If so what did it run?
    Specializing in building and tuning 1000hp, daily driven, 9 second cars!

    www.ostdyno.com Shop Phone: 724-368-9000

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner NJ_Phil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Flanders nj
    Posts
    283
    I built the car over the winter and street tuned it first. Been to the track 3 times but could never make a full, hard 1/4 mile pass because no rollbar.
    Last visit I pushed my luck and got booted after pulling a 10.4 even though I lifted at the 1000ft mark. Had I known they were going to boot me, I would have stayed into it for a 9.80 and left with a smile on my face.

    It's a street legal, weekend only car and I ordered a Wolfe 6pt bar but 6 week delivery
    2012 C6 Base, Kooks 1-7/8" LT, Catted, NPP
    Novi 1500SL, 10% OD IW, Big Blower Cam, Flip Drive, 2x Alky, ID1000
    Nitto NT05R 305x19, 255x18 on CCW T10s
    Self built and tuned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kod2UTqrVwM

  9. #9
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,104
    i have cranked over 700+ ft lbs out of a box stock ls3 with as 76mm turbo. wastegate issues. i jumped out of the throttle when i saw the boost go over 15 psi.
    The most hated, make the most power.
    93 Ranger. 5.3 D1X. 1069hp.

  10. #10
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Portersville, Pa
    Posts
    289
    Quote Originally Posted by Area47 View Post
    i have cranked over 700+ ft lbs out of a box stock ls3 with as 76mm turbo. wastegate issues. i jumped out of the throttle when i saw the boost go over 15 psi.
    Thanks for the reply. We are already past that point with the Whipple and going for more.
    There's got to be others on here besides GHuggins that have done this?
    What I am hoping to find and learn from is someone who took it to the edge, raced it for a period, inched up on the boost and/or timing and then found the limit.
    We intentionally did this with the Gen III Hemi platform and it was of significant benefit for us as a shop to learn what those engines could take.
    We will do the same with our LS3 - but want to do it as wisely as possible - if that makes sense?
    Specializing in building and tuning 1000hp, daily driven, 9 second cars!

    www.ostdyno.com Shop Phone: 724-368-9000

  11. #11
    Tuning Addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Franklin, NC / Gainesville, Ga
    Posts
    6,736
    I love the ls3 - one of the best engines ever designed and put into production in my opinion... As we discussed before there should be no reason why you wouldn't be in the low to mid 900's with your setup. Only thing you really have to worry about are your iat's churning the blower that much. I know on a nearly identical setup on 109 fuel and 15psi you can make almost exactly 900 or a touch over to the tires or at least that's what I typically make with it... Heck even on 93 you should easily put down 850ish...

    Problem I've found with all the ls motors is that the rotating assembly with a good tune can take anywhere from the 800's to 900's to the tires no problem and be beat to death and live a long healthy life at those levels, but after that due to the limits of the block your better off going to a completely built engine and selling your entire motor as an assembly to someone needing one or set it aside for going back stockish or whatever later... That is if you don't send your motor off somewhere very repeatable and have the cylinders and block as a whole upgraded and strengthened... After market iron blocks or already built and beefed up aluminum blocks aren't that expensive and will rather easily handle that next 500 or so hp additional level to the tires... Worse case scenario is you try to have your stock aluminum block machined by a not so good machine shop like we did and wind up with a built motor not handling as much as a stock motor can and you wind up throwing away several thousand dollars to go the way you should have gone in the first place... We had one we thought was lifting the heads, but even on 12 psi with a magnuson supercharger "which is as low as we could turn the boost down to on our setup" and timing pulled back to where it was only putting down 750 to the tires on E60 - it was still puking coolant out around the extra head studs we opted to be added to our block externally... Pulled the heads only to find machining marks embedded in the head gaskets which also so happened to coincide with the way the exhaust traces on the block and heads were flowing and leaking out of the combustion chambers... Straight edge also revealed how untrue the block and heads were machined... SO different shop, unfortunately lots more mulla, problem solved...

    Long story short - if you do choose to build your motor - only use one of the good big name places or your own machine shop if your fortunate enough to have one

    There are also others on here who have regularly pushed the ls3's into the 900's to the tires without issues besides me, so I know they'll take it just fine with the right tune...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  12. #12
    Tuning Addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Franklin, NC / Gainesville, Ga
    Posts
    6,736
    On a side note - any pictures of your tensioner/belt setup? Even with the pulley setup for 15ish psi it takes two people, a special over-sized idler at the s/c pulley and a big arse pry bar to tighten the belt enough to eliminate slippage in the higher rpms, so curious what you've got for them...


    Attached a pic of the dyno in my signature
    Attached Images Attached Images
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Portersville, Pa
    Posts
    289
    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    I love the ls3 - one of the best engines ever designed and put into production in my opinion... As we discussed before there should be no reason why you wouldn't be in the low to mid 900's with your setup. Only thing you really have to worry about are your iat's churning the blower that much. I know on a nearly identical setup on 109 fuel and 15psi you can make almost exactly 900 or a touch over to the tires or at least that's what I typically make with it... Heck even on 93 you should easily put down 850ish...

    Problem I've found with all the ls motors is that the rotating assembly with a good tune can take anywhere from the 800's to 900's to the tires no problem and be beat to death and live a long healthy life at those levels, but after that due to the limits of the block your better off going to a completely built engine and selling your entire motor as an assembly to someone needing one or set it aside for going back stockish or whatever later... That is if you don't send your motor off somewhere very repeatable and have the cylinders and block as a whole upgraded and strengthened... After market iron blocks or already built and beefed up aluminum blocks aren't that expensive and will rather easily handle that next 500 or so hp additional level to the tires... Worse case scenario is you try to have your stock aluminum block machined by a not so good machine shop like we did and wind up with a built motor not handling as much as a stock motor can and you wind up throwing away several thousand dollars to go the way you should have gone in the first place... We had one we thought was lifting the heads, but even on 12 psi with a magnuson supercharger "which is as low as we could turn the boost down to on our setup" and timing pulled back to where it was only putting down 750 to the tires on E60 - it was still puking coolant out around the extra head studs we opted to be added to our block externally... Pulled the heads only to find machining marks embedded in the head gaskets which also so happened to coincide with the way the exhaust traces on the block and heads were flowing and leaking out of the combustion chambers... Straight edge also revealed how untrue the block and heads were machined... SO different shop, unfortunately lots more mulla, problem solved...

    Long story short - if you do choose to build your motor - only use one of the good big name places or your own machine shop if your fortunate enough to have one

    There are also others on here who have regularly pushed the ls3's into the 900's to the tires without issues besides me, so I know they'll take it just fine with the right tune...
    Thank you sir! I do genuinely appreciate your input. Knowledgeable experience is invaluable. We started down this path with the Hemi's many moons ago and there really was not anyone to lean on for experience in pushing that platform - or if they had info they weren't sharing it. We now sell some of the most reliable and powerful Gen III Hemi's you can buy

    A built LS is certainly in the future however we want to "pay our dues" and learn every aspect we can of this platform including the limitations of the stock long block. I think the next step, if this engine stays together will be a set of heads. Not sure which brand yet but our engine builder claims 50hp NA on his dyno by just bolting on a set off the shelf from Jegs (he builds the engines for the Jegs cars). Then we will move on to a properly built long block assembly. We are turbo guys but this Whipple does make some steam. It will be for sale once we are done with this part of the experiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    On a side note - any pictures of your tensioner/belt setup? Even with the pulley setup for 15ish psi it takes two people, a special over-sized idler at the s/c pulley and a big arse pry bar to tighten the belt enough to eliminate slippage in the higher rpms, so curious what you've got for them...


    Attached a pic of the dyno in my signature
    We will post up pics once we have a "pretty" version of our belt/tensioner system built. Assuming it continues to function properly we will have it listed for sale on our website as well.
    It's really not that complicated but designed for the Whipple 2.9 only. No huge prybar required and the belt is not much tighter than stock. It's all about surface contact on the drive pulley.
    Specializing in building and tuning 1000hp, daily driven, 9 second cars!

    www.ostdyno.com Shop Phone: 724-368-9000

  14. #14
    i modifdied the stock plate to move the pulley as close i could to the supercharger's pulley but i still have splippage around 12psi. i even try tyo use a kinda stiky spray to help but it ain't done so much

  15. #15
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,970
    one of the automotive places over here does a Gilmer kit to suit the LS with the harrop, whipple, LSA blowers just bolts on swap pulleys and no more slip

  16. #16
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,104
    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    Thanks for the reply. We are already past that point with the Whipple and going for more.
    There's got to be others on here besides GHuggins that have done this?
    What I am hoping to find and learn from is someone who took it to the edge, raced it for a period, inched up on the boost and/or timing and then found the limit.
    We intentionally did this with the Gen III Hemi platform and it was of significant benefit for us as a shop to learn what those engines could take.
    We will do the same with our LS3 - but want to do it as wisely as possible - if that makes sense?
    i was limited by the stock valve springs. so i never got to the point of really pushing it. ::shrugs::
    The most hated, make the most power.
    93 Ranger. 5.3 D1X. 1069hp.

  17. #17
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    6,347
    With good fuel they'll do 800rwtq fine way more often than not. It's pretty amazing honestly. I don't like leaving them over 800rwtq unless the owner doesn't care if it starts bending rods but if you're going for the limit I wouldn't stop at 800. These motors are just insane. Any hint of knock at that level and you'll break pistons quick but if you're running a higher octane fuel you should be fine, some meth on top doesn't hurt either.

    My personal car is a 200K mile 2005 LS2, 14psi, 18* of timing on E85 and it's still going (though I did finally start pushing water at the last 1/2 mile event so it's apart for a new head gasket right now--might have been too much timing ). It's been supercharged for something like 50K miles now and this is the first issue. Cylinders didn't have a lip at the top really at all and the pistons were pretty clean (probably the meth and E85). It's pretty incredible

    Obviously with LS3 heads it would be even better.
    Last edited by schpenxel; 06-06-2017 at 12:59 PM.
    Post a log and tune if you want help

    VCM Suite V3+ GETTING STARTED THREADS / HOW TO's

    Tuner by night
    CPX Tuning
    2005 Corvette, M6
    ECS 1500 Supercharger
    AlkyControl Meth, Monster LT1-S Twin, NT05R's
    ID1000's, 220/240, .598/.598, 118 from Cam Motion

    2007 Escalade, A6
    Stock

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Portersville, Pa
    Posts
    289
    Made some pulls last night and a 1/4 mile run on our dyno. The NW 102mm fits with our pulley system. We made a steady 18psi with a spike to 19.5. We also loaded up the remote tank with ice and the IAT's peaked around 100 degrees at the end of the 1/4 mile pull. Now to take it to the track.

    Here's a pic of our prototype 6 rib system. It's not pretty but functional. Our production version will be improved in appearance. The original design was using a larger tension which is why we had to add the spacer at the tensioner. The final product will be a flat, stepped piece of steel or aluminum.
    We will have this listed on our website on our products page assuming there are no issues in the final stages of testing.
    Very simple actually.
    20170607_173700.jpg
    Last edited by [email protected]; 06-08-2017 at 09:32 AM.
    Specializing in building and tuning 1000hp, daily driven, 9 second cars!

    www.ostdyno.com Shop Phone: 724-368-9000

  19. #19
    Tuning Addict
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Franklin, NC / Gainesville, Ga
    Posts
    6,736
    I think every big blower needs something like that That'll fix belt slip all right

    How did she dyno?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  20. #20
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    6,347
    I think it's safe to say it's not going to want to slip with that much wrap. Seems like the force of pulling the belt is just going to pull the belt tighter around the pulley, which is great