LS3 (and others) Throttle Mapping for better throttle response- Try this...

[gmtech16450yz]

So I recently picked up a new Chevy SS as my daily driver and after daily driving an 800hp roadster for the last 3 years, the LS3 in this SS seems pretty pathetic. lol. Isn't it funny how power is so relative? For some people a bone stock SS (or Camaro SS/LS3) would be considered a "monster", but when your wife and son's basically stock cars leave you in the dust, you have to do something! For me, it will most likely mean swapping a full LSA into the SS. But for the time being, I've been trying to make the car a little less "pathetic". haha.

The LS3 isn't a bad engine, but there are definitely things in the stock tunes that don't help the way the power is delivered. The off-idle pedal response is actually too strong, probably to make the car "feel" more powerful. The midrange/mid pedal is ok, but it falls on it's face when the revs come up. For me, it makes the engine power/response seem "narrow". In other words, boring and not very versatile.

I need to make one point VERY clear here, ALL I'm talking about is throttle mapping. I'm not talking about making more power, or even moving the power lower or higher. I'm simply talking about the relationship between the pedal and the throttle, nothing else. (Speaking of that, make sure you're logging BOTH the pedal percentage AND the throttle percentage. Almost nobody does. Everybody should!) That's why I figured I'd post this, this is something that anyone can try, with any type of power levels. I'm actually a huge fan of modifying the throttle mapping on just about every engine I work on. There is SO much that can be done with throttle control to make a huge hp engine more manageable, or in this case, make a kinda weak engine "feel" peppier. A lot of tuners stay away from the throttle mapping tables because they're scared to cause a REP or (years ago) possibly brick an ECM. Don't be afraid to experiment, the throttle tables in E67's and E38's are a powerful tool to make an engine feel like you want it to feel.

So in the case of this LS3 in this SS, the stock Desired Throttle Area table actually had the throttle lagging behind the pedal at 62-90% pedal. No wonder the engine felt flat! Between 3000-3500rpm the stock tune actually had the throttle going back down instead of up! WTF? Are they afraid the engine is going to make so much power above 3500 that they needed to reel it back in a little? lol. The other thing that was weird is that the off idle, low pedal percentages had the throttle going pretty far open, quicker than most stock tunes. (Probably why my wife thought the SS felt stronger than her CTS-V during slow around town driving. That's because as soon as you touch the pedal in the SS, the throttle is opening way further than the LSA in her car. Again, throttle mapping can make a 415hp car "feel" faster than a 600hp car. That is until you floor it. haha.)

So here's what I did... Since raising the values in these tables is what often causes REP, I instead lowered the values in the lower pedal percentage/lower rpm areas. (I did fix the backwards throttle movement areas by raising those values though.) The theory, or goal here is to make the initial pedal travel smoother, and also open the throttle as the rpm's rise. By lowering the values at partial pedal, low rpms, but blending them into the stock values at higher rpm's, you end up with an engine that "feels" MUCH more responsive. If you do it right, it will feel like you've gained a pile of torque that builds as the rpm's rise. Call me silly, but I like an engine that builds power as it goes up in rpm's. If the particular engine you have doesn't actually build power like it's supposed to or like you want it to, you can get the same feel by having the throttle open slowly/slightly as the rpm's rise. Again, I need to stress that this is for everyday driving at "normal" pedal or rpm ranges. This doesn't do a thing for WOT.

Anyway, sorry for the long explanation! Just try it! If nothing else, you'll learn how to modify these tables without getting a REP situation. And if you do, just revert back a tune or two and it will be fine. If you do it right, I'm telling you your engine will feel much more responsive and feel more like it just wants to rev. Yeah, some will say it's kinda cheating by making a not so strong engine feel stronger without actually making it stronger, but if it makes your car more enjoyable to drive, isn't that a good thing? And even if I put an LSA in this SS, I still would absolutely not want to leave the throttle mapping tables stock.

Here are some screen shots of my latest values in this LS3 SS to give you an idea of what I'm doing...


This image is the modified table to smooth low pedal/rpm response and increase throttle as rpm's rise...




This shows the differences between what I did and the stock tune...




As you can see in the stock map shown here, the throttle movement rises sharply and then actually falls back in several spots when the rpm rises...




This modified map shows a more gradual rise in throttle movement as pedal or rpm's increase...

[Rick P]

So how would you go about fixing this one? My truck runs great but in certain places on my way home from work where i turn onto a hill you can here the intake get's loud [CAI] but the truck is laggy until it gets to around 1800 rpm then it'll scoot.Other than that it's a great drive finally.2013turd.hpt

[10_SS]

I have 2010 Camaro SS, all i did to fix this was move the values to the left my one or two columns... really woke it up and removed the dead zone in the pedal... makes no sense to have this dead pedal area. I am not a fan of changing the throttle blade as RPM increases much as this is what they do on 2016 Silverado 5.3... I logged it, at low RPM they actually increase it allot to say 80% when Pedal is at 20% around 1200-2000rpm then it gets reduced, they do this to make it feel extra torqey but it is uneven power and unnatural. I LOVE the old school cable throttles since everything is always the same.

Plus, they do something weird when the engine is cold... the throttle is ULTRA sensitive for the first 5-30seconds or so... drives me NUTS

[schpenxel]

No reduced power issues?

[GHuggins]

If anyone does this, just keep in mind that the ecm can only handle so many big changes like this at once... You CAN NOT modify this and then activate individual cylinder fueling adjustments for example without putting the vehicle into limp mode... Individual cylinder adjustment is needed on anything running any sort of substantial boost with an eaton based blower from all of my tuning experience - the rear cylinders always get more air than the front...

[tbrtuning]

Individual cylinder adjustment is needed on anything running any sort of substantial boost with an eaton based blower from all of my tuning experience - the rear cylinders always get more air than the front...

How do you know? Reading plugs or have you ran widebands on individual cylinders? Not questioning your knowledge at all I am just curious.

[GHuggins]

Reading plugs - best and easiest way Travis The magnuson heartbeats are the worlds worst for this when you get them up above or around 16psi... Nearly all of the air goes to cylinders 6 and 8 with the next dosage going to 7 and 5 and then for some weird reason cyl 1 after that... Fuel system doesn't matter either!!!

I've had them come in with the ground electrode melted off of cylinder 8 just for reference...

This is part of the reason engines like what are in my signature are still living

[GHuggins]

Magnuson actually redesigned their lids this last year trying to fix this some after I griped about it a little

[sevinn]

I feel like my car goes into limp mode if I even think about touching this table. I'll give this a shot lol

[10_SS]

No reduced power issues?

who, me? or OP? Me I did get REP if I moved it over too far to the left, I think I moved the first table over 1-2 columns then blended the main chunk and left the end table or two the same as stock. No REP. I tried to move it over further and it did REP.

SEVINN - you cant change it that much... just a few values here and there... example stock SS table shows 1% throttle opening starting at a whopping 15% accel pedal position. Move that over 1 table to 9% (one column to the left) and you'll See immediate improvement, just ramp it up slow and you wont have REP. Mine is stock at 53.1% and after

[07GTS]

If anyone does this, just keep in mind that the ecm can only handle so many big changes like this at once... You CAN NOT modify this and then activate individual cylinder fueling adjustments for example without putting the vehicle into limp mode... Individual cylinder adjustment is needed on anything running any sort of substantial boost with an eaton based blower from all of my tuning experience - the rear cylinders always get more air than the front...

i have tried the individual cyl adjustment but i had an issue with fast throttle movement felt like engine shut off for a second felt like TC but i then put back to stock 1.0 cyl gain and was all good, is that a know issue if the ecu dosnt like that table messed with..? think the most any individual gain was about 1-4% normal driving seemed fine just a throttle stomp was bad, or if i done too many changes at once is it worth trying again and slowly building it up..?

[sevinn]

who, me? or OP? Me I did get REP if I moved it over too far to the left, I think I moved the first table over 1-2 columns then blended the main chunk and left the end table or two the same as stock. No REP. I tried to move it over further and it did REP.

SEVINN - you cant change it that much... just a few values here and there... example stock SS table shows 1% throttle opening starting at a whopping 15% accel pedal position. Move that over 1 table to 9% (one column to the left) and you'll See immediate improvement, just ramp it up slow and you wont have REP. Mine is stock at 53.1% and after

Thanks I'll give it another shot and see how it goes. I've made some small changes in the past and it felt pretty good, but I overwrote them in another revision where I forgot to copy it over.

[10_SS]

Thanks I'll give it another shot and see how it goes. I've made some small changes in the past and it felt pretty good, but I overwrote them in another revision where I forgot to copy it over.

start saving your tunes like this:
001 = Stock
002 = Fuel correction 1
003 = Fuel correction 2
004 = 003 with Throttle Pedal changes

maybe you are but sounded like you wernt for a minute

[gmtech16450yz]

10_SS, what you're talking about doing is the opposite of what I do. Moving the values to the left will make the initial pedal travel too touchy, especially if you have an engine that makes really strong off idle power. What you want is SMOOTH power control.

A good example is in a manual trans car when you have it high in the revs going on and off the pedal. If the initial pedal movement makes the throttle open a lot, that on-off throttle transition is going to be REALLY obnoxious in a high hp car. Sure, making the pedal to throttle more sensitive in the initial travel will make the engine seem stronger, but at the expense of driveability. Using the power (lol) of electric throttle control is what makes an 800hp car drive smoother and more refined than a 300hp old technology car with a cable throttle ever could hope to be.

Electric throttle control is one of the greatest advances made in engine technology. It amazes me that a huge majority of "tuners" never even log pedal/throttle relationship PIDs much less modify these tables when they're tuning. For those of you that have tunes from well known tuners, take a look at this table. I'm betting that 90% of them are bone stock. To me that's like having an amazing tool that fits every nut or bolt, and never taking it out of your toolbox. The pedal to throttle relationship isn't always 1:1, which is a good thing. If you never log the tps AND the pedal position, you'll never be able to see how that input to output relationship is working.

As far as getting REP, I just looked at the table in my daily driven LSA Sky. I've run that car for 3 years with the Desired Throttle Area table as much as 5% positive and 10% negative from stock values, with no REPs. Most of the negative values were at low pedal percentages, again to smooth the application of all that low end torque. The 5% positive values were to smooth the higher pedal percentage to throttle movements. The majority of changes I make on most every car is to LOWER the throttle opening percentages at lower pedal movements, and then bring the values back up to stock as the rpm's rise. The chances of getting into REP when you lower the values is way less than if you raise the values in this table.

[10_SS]

10_SS, what you're talking about doing is the opposite of what I do. Moving the values to the left will make the initial pedal travel too touchy, especially if you have an engine that makes really strong off idle power. What you want is SMOOTH power control.

Nope. All I'm doing is removing the dead zone in the pedal, cant argue that. And since 'm spreading out the pedal opening over a larger pedal travel it opens less fast, BUT the pedal starts to react faster. Taking out the slack in the pedal if you will. Who likes 1" of slack in the pedal?

Ontop of that, the whipple bypass valve would close at the same time the stock pedal opening rate would become very fast...

Go buy a Whipple from the year I bought it and tell me how the pedal feels. It's the worst setup I've ever felt. I've mentioned this other places, I used to get about 50hp gain in 1% pedal travel enough to kick me sideways if in a corner and trying to accell.. this would be a Highway onramp for example.

[sevinn]

start saving your tunes like this:
001 = Stock
002 = Fuel correction 1
003 = Fuel correction 2
004 = 003 with Throttle Pedal changes

maybe you are but sounded like you wernt for a minute

I do, but I wanted to go back to a previous revision where I didn't have this changed and just forgot to ever add it back. I do need to come up with a better naming scheme than "mafonly,veonly,blended" etc, but I do label them..just goofed this time lol

[10_SS]

A good example is in a manual trans car when you have it high in the revs going on and off the pedal. If the initial pedal movement makes the throttle open a lot, that on-off throttle transition is going to be REALLY obnoxious in a high hp car. Sure, making the pedal to throttle more sensitive in the initial travel will make the engine seem stronger, but at the expense of driveability. Using the power (lol) of electric throttle control is what makes an 800hp car drive smoother and more refined than a 300hp old technology car with a cable throttle ever could hope to be.

Weird my LT1 that had an offset shaft on my stock LT1 Thottle Body and even my aftermarket BBK throttle body keeps the blade from acting as you describe felt awesome... NO slack, perfect pedal transition.

I think what you dont realize is the cable driven cam setup on the stock throttle bodies do the SAME thing as the curve in the Drive By Wire, just you cant adjust it on the cable setup as easy, not that you would want to cause it's not slacky or slow to open as it is. I know you are thinking I make my curve LINEAR straight line from start of opening to finish... LOL GO back and read the post over and look at the stock tables and what I said I did.

The really shittly part about newer cars and DBW is the crap they do in Park and Neutral, from a standstill, or any other time... power vs pedal opening is NEVER the same anymore. I have to apply 70% throttle to rev my truck engine in Park/Neutra/ just to make it rev fast, in Gear with Trac Control on it's 40%, in gear with Trac Control OFF it's 5%, then put it in 4x4 and it's different, then put it in 4x4 LOW and it's even more reduced... SHITTY

The reason OEM's LOVE DBW is because they can take out all the extra hardware (Trac Controller that would mechanically close throttle Body), the Cruise Control Hardware needed to pull on the cable, and have a better way to control TORQUE going to the drivetrain especially so you cant NEUTRAL DUMP anymore or rev past 2500rpm in neutral, and actually go WOT from a standstill.

AS you can see, DBW is really pretty awesome. Plus you get REP's, Too Much Boost closes the blade, YADA YADA YADA

Just a cheaper way to make cars and warranty everything for 100,000k miles is all it is.

[gmtech16450yz]

I think what you dont realize

lol.


I'm actually thinking that when I swap an LSA into my SS I'm going to ditch the stupid electric throttle setup and go with THE BEST pedal design EVER!!! Forget cables or wires, there's NOTHING better than having an actual linkage connection between your foot and the throttle. That is until you break a motor mount and it goes full throttle on it's own. (Been there, done that. Which is why I "realize" more than you think. haha.)

This is what the throttle setup on the '67 Cougar I drove in high school looked like. And yeah, when I was doing a burnout through the halls and the tires dropped down off of the painted concrete hallway onto the asphalt parking lot, the left motor mount snapped, tore the neck off the radiator and the engine went full throttle. Fun times! The best part was my dad never found out. I limped it to my buddies house, pulled the radiator and motor mount while he went to the parts store to get another mount. I soldered the neck back on the radiator, put the new motor mount in and drove it back home before my dad got home from work that night!

Technology is our friend. It's a good thing they don't build stuff like they used to. Yes, cable throttle cams on carbs and throttle bodies had different ratios. That doesn't mean they're anywhere close to the tuning possibilities of an electric throttle.

[Etaun]

I have a L92 /6l80 with E38 ecm from a 07 escalade it has heads and cam in a 62 nova. I am getting a very touchy throttle down low to the point it is jerky if you not careful. I installed a Dakota digital cruise system and the throttle reacts so quick it surges going down the road trying to hold steady speed. what should I adjust to?

[10_SS]

lol.


I'm actually thinking that when I swap an LSA into my SS I'm going to ditch the stupid electric throttle setup and go with THE BEST pedal design EVER!!! Forget cables or wires, there's NOTHING better than having an actual linkage connection between your foot and the throttle. That is until you break a motor mount and it goes full throttle on it's own. (Been there, done that. Which is why I "realize" more than you think. haha.)

This is what the throttle setup on the '67 Cougar I drove in high school looked like. And yeah, when I was doing a burnout through the halls and the tires dropped down off of the painted concrete hallway onto the asphalt parking lot, the left motor mount snapped, tore the neck off the radiator and the engine went full throttle. Fun times! The best part was my dad never found out. I limped it to my buddies house, pulled the radiator and motor mount while he went to the parts store to get another mount. I soldered the neck back on the radiator, put the new motor mount in and drove it back home before my dad got home from work that night!

Technology is our friend. It's a good thing they don't build stuff like they used to. Yes, cable throttle cams on carbs and throttle bodies had different ratios. That doesn't mean they're anywhere close to the tuning possibilities of an electric throttle.

They fixed that entire problem with cable. Trying ti figure out what the GM Enginners were thinking when they thought it would be a good idea to make the 2016 5.3 Silverado Throttle 2-3x more sensitive right off idle at cold start. Makes me look like an idiot and almost crash every time I go to reverse and connect to the camper on Sunday mornings. It returns to normal around 3-4mph and then I stop accelerating completely. Just plain ol F-d up.

Oh, then there was the time I was stranded with my awesome Drive By Wire... just decided to go REP for no reason at all. No way to move. Never have problems with anything cable driven, ever.