Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 38 of 38

Thread: Tuner lock ever to return? Any other options available to protect your work?

  1. #21
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,104
    sct scrambles the files now. it "appears" to be fine when you pull it with hpt, but if you load it with hpt, it will not run. All of the tables are there, but screwed up on the pull.
    The most hated, make the most power.
    93 Ranger. 5.3 D1X. 1069hp.

  2. #22
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Thunderdome
    Posts
    389
    As I am a tuning hobbyist, if someone were to obtain a tune I have for there personal vehicle & not profit (business/peer-to-peer like profit) knowing the possible risks upfront... by all means, have at it.

    The engineers that created what we are working off of to modify don't have any personal profit protection need. They may have signed an agreement upon hiring in to not voluntarily share the work; which is different than being a hobbyist.
    I have a burrito in my colon, yet refried beans come out...
    How i know it's from the same meal? I didn't ingest corn any other time.

  3. #23
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    330
    Quote Originally Posted by * _ * View Post
    The engineers that created what we are working off of to modify don't have any personal profit protection need. They may have signed an agreement upon hiring in to not voluntarily share the work; which is different than being a hobbyist.
    Keyword being "Engineers" who literally bounce all around between whatever job they can find that pays them what they are worth. To them, which it takes many and thousands of hours to create the stock calibration we modify, it's a job for the time being. They find some other job that has nothing to do with cars, they may never look back. For some of us that have made this how we take care of our families it means a lot more. I don't know about some of these other shop owners, but I get paid DICK in comparison to what the guys that made the stock calibration make. On top of that, my job is harder due to the insane amount of variables of aftermarket parts that guys love throwing at their cars, the lack of state of the art testing equipment, lack of time as we are expected to make a totally fucked off stock calibration run a 1000+ HP engine within a day, OH and for like $800 bucks. So yea, again not having a computer running an engine dyno that tests calibrations all night long and gathers more data than you can comprehend while you sleep, I tend to value the smart, hard work I've put in and would love to make it just a little harder for the "hobby" tuner or local competing shop to get a bunch of quick, free information...sorry for the rant.

  4. #24
    sounds like you need to quit and go work at a better place then...
    06MonteSS

    2014 Camaro 2SS/RS - LS3, 6-speed manual, short-throw performance shifter, NPP dual-mode performance exhaust, 1LE front splitter, ZL1 rockers, Z28 Rear Spoiler, all paint-matched Red Rock Metallic, Custom paint-matched Bowtie emblems, Custom painted SS emblems, BMR strut tower brace, CAI - Cold Air Inductions cold air intake, Apex Motorsports, Inc. catch-can, Bo White Ported/Polished throttle body, Custom DiabLew Tune

  5. #25
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    330
    I own the shop, so it doesn't get much better in my opinion. Hence why it's more important than ever to protect things.

  6. #26
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Thunderdome
    Posts
    389
    I read ya on the aggravation. The folks that steal for personal gain (the $) the software information (tune) likely lack the ability to turn a wrench let alone have the hand tools to put together something from there own hands to stand behind. If those very same people that steal tunes do have actual tools, I bet those were stolen as well. Pretty sure I wouldn't be the only one on this forum to have fallen victim of such tools being stolen.. Thousands of $ gone due to tool thieves & not able to recoup from it.

    If a friend/neighbor/relative wanted to borrow some hand tools to replace a faulty part, not only would I kindly lend them tools if they asked, but I'd likely give them a hand so they don't cause more work for themselves in the end.
    I have a burrito in my colon, yet refried beans come out...
    How i know it's from the same meal? I didn't ingest corn any other time.

  7. #27
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    405
    Posts
    2,288
    Been doing this on thousands of vehicles since 2004 and have never locked a tune. I just charge what my time is worth whether it be developing for something new or something I've done hundreds of times and then I don't have to worry if anyone else sees or copies what I've done because I've peen paid for the time I spent doing it. If you are good at what you do you will continue to have customers even if someone else is copying your work.

  8. #28
    Advanced Tuner Blue Bee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    DFW
    Posts
    330
    Quote Originally Posted by 2xLS1 View Post
    Been doing this on thousands of vehicles since 2004 and have never locked a tune. I just charge what my time is worth whether it be developing for something new or something I've done hundreds of times and then I don't have to worry if anyone else sees or copies what I've done because I've peen paid for the time I spent doing it. If you are good at what you do you will continue to have customers even if someone else is copying your work.
    Agreed, but...if you are good people want to take your work, then the next thing you know, you've got a bunch of local guys that have no shop, no dyno, and know just enough to be dangerous telling people they can tune their car.

  9. #29
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Thunderdome
    Posts
    389
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Bee View Post
    Agreed, but...if you are good people want to take your work, then the next thing you know, you've got a bunch of local guys that have no shop, no dyno, and know just enough to be dangerous telling people they can tune their car.
    We don't police the decisions of others. Should the person bite off more than they can chew and the other party ends up soured over the whole ordeal, I'm sure if it's severe enough the legal system will intervene... Not needing outsiders to be involved in the matter.
    I have a burrito in my colon, yet refried beans come out...
    How i know it's from the same meal? I didn't ingest corn any other time.

  10. #30
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    405
    Posts
    2,288
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Bee View Post
    Agreed, but...if you are good people want to take your work, then the next thing you know, you've got a bunch of local guys that have no shop, no dyno, and know just enough to be dangerous telling people they can tune their car.
    Happens all the time. Then usually those people are bringing me their cars to fix their fked up tune.

  11. #31
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    550
    Quote Originally Posted by 2xLS1 View Post
    Been doing this on thousands of vehicles since 2004 and have never locked a tune.
    Yes sir - I agree completely. Have been in the industry for 10+ years and have never locked a controller either - and never will. A fact that some tuners willfully ignore, is that the vehicle, its controllers, and the software contents therein, are the property of the vehicle owner.

    Sort of like an electrician being paid to add electrical circuits to your home, who then also locks your electrical panel before leaving, so that you cannot make any future changes - to your own property.

    Ironic that there is another current thread on this forum, where tuners are complaining about GM trying to lock them out of the 2017+ controllers - rather hypocritical if you stop and think about it.

  12. #32
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Thunderdome
    Posts
    389
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post
    Sort of like an electrician being paid to add electrical circuits to your home, who then also locks your electrical panel before leaving, so that you cannot make any future changes - to your own property.
    Good example!

    If a technician builds a turbocharger system for a vehicle, should they weld shut the hood to protect any reversed engineering? Not there car, so no.
    I have a burrito in my colon, yet refried beans come out...
    How i know it's from the same meal? I didn't ingest corn any other time.

  13. #33
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon S. View Post
    Yes sir - I agree completely. Have been in the industry for 10+ years and have never locked a controller either - and never will. A fact that some tuners willfully ignore, is that the vehicle, its controllers, and the software contents therein, are the property of the vehicle owner.

    Sort of like an electrician being paid to add electrical circuits to your home, who then also locks your electrical panel before leaving, so that you cannot make any future changes - to your own property.

    Ironic that there is another current thread on this forum, where tuners are complaining about GM trying to lock them out of the 2017+ controllers - rather hypocritical if you stop and think about it.
    You sir understand common sense! You would be my tuner if I needed one!

    I've been reading and wondering why a tuner would accept money for performing their job (Tune). Then find it normal to perform a task that can further cost the same customer time and money for tuner worry and claim sole ownership to a customers PCM/TCM. Things happen, people move etc.. When I first got into the realm of tuning and hearing of the troubles of tuners locking tunes. I was worried when I needed my tune redone. I purchased the car used, so I didn't know, luckily a very reputable shop in Dallas did the tune and after speaking to them, they assured me they never lock em. I will always ask upfront whether a tuner locks, if they do I will take my business elsewhere.

    I find it very refreshing that HP Tuners is not allowing locking, this is a great business decision! Keep up the good customer service.

    To the tuner that worries about their hard work getting ripped, I get it, but remember the customer paid for that tune and you agreed to perform the labor. I would suggest tuning policies, say 1 year, 3 years, and charge accordingly. Then they just pay dyno fees. If you're good at tuning your customer is coming back, and has good reason to. Then the worries of them ripping your tune will be very low. Just a thought.

  14. #34
    Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    gippsland
    Posts
    134
    Quote Originally Posted by 2xLS1 View Post
    Been doing this on thousands of vehicles since 2004 and have never locked a tune. I just charge what my time is worth whether it be developing for something new or something I've done hundreds of times and then I don't have to worry if anyone else sees or copies what I've done because I've peen paid for the time I spent doing it. If you are good at what you do you will continue to have customers even if someone else is copying your work.
    +2

  15. #35
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,104
    what I have run into recently is EFI live was on it previously and it wouldn't pull with HPT.
    The most hated, make the most power.
    93 Ranger. 5.3 D1X. 1069hp.

  16. #36
    I would leave the seed/handshake stock and just move the offsets of the table headers and data pull on the table data. so without a correct definition of the offsets and calibrations the data dump is useless to the"tuner" who read the file or will get a checksum error... they can still write over the data/tune but will not be able to understand the data they dumped/read... unless they want to take the time to find all the vectors, follow the subroutines of the code to map out the parameters. it still is a a lot of work to do but seems to be a good compromise in the ideals of everyone who has posted in the thread, along with the engineers of HPTuners themselves.

    (that it what it looks like Lund does for his tunes that I have seen)

  17. #37
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    550
    Scrambling the data (rather than locking the controller) has virtually the same net negative effect on the owner of the controller - they cannot make any future changes (i.e. tire size, gear ratio) to their own property - without wiping out the previous tuning that they specifically contracted, and paid for.

    In a time where people are quick to invoke the word "right" for often seemingly miniscule issues, the contracted tuner has no "right" to alter the programming of the someone else's controller - beyond that which they were originally contracted to do (most often adjusting the airflow model).

    Depending on where you live in the world, the act of "altering" or "converting the use" of the property of a person, to the use of another person, or in such a manner that it diminishes their enjoyment of their property - meets the definition of a criminal theft.

    Think about that for a moment.

    In recent years the tuning software companies have removed features from their software (like the ability of alter emission control devices in diesel platforms, or to adjust the calibration CVN data) - that they viewed as potentially problematic from a legal standpoint.

    The tuner lock feature is also problematic from a legal standpoint.

  18. #38
    Potential Tuner
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    4
    I agree with Jon S. They paid for it, what they do with it is up to them. Just make sure you charge appropriately for your intellectual property. There will always be a 'Roach' or two that steals it looking for a quick fix.