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Thread: 0411 Swap on Vortec 454

  1. #1
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    0411 Swap on Vortec 454

    Hello,

    Tuned a couple cars with HPtuners and so far so good. I have a big block 454 in 1972 in a Chevelle I am working on. I have access to a 99 Truck with a Vortec 7400. My goal was to remove everything from the truck in regard to the ECU and install it into the Chevelle. As I have been doing research for a couple of days I am learning that the so called black box that came in Vortecs is not very desirable and the most people convert their Vortecs to 0411 ECMs. My goal is just to get this car running with an 0411 and a harness from whatever will work best! As a twist I am going to be running a 4L60e instead of a 4L80e. The current setup is 454 with dual carbs and 700r4. I am ordering a 4L60e and looking to use a Vortec harness or whatever works best with an Edelbrock Pro Flo BBC efi intake and my new electronic transmission. Not sure how I would get the ignition up and running properly since my current engine is carbureted with a distributor (and I can't remember if the engine I am pulling the parts off of has one or COPs) Can someone please point me in the direction of a definitive swap thread or the right direction to look in?

    Thanks,

    Dan

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    Honestly I recommend the 80e. You'll burn through a 60e real quick if you plan on punching it at all. I have a 4.3l tbi and I toasted my 60e. Imo it would be easier to swap the 7400 into the chevelle and if the one in it is original then just stick that in the corner. Less headache in making things work. They require a crank sensor I believe like the 4.3, 305, 350. The 454 you're parts pulling from has a distributor. One problem you probably will run into is p1345 cam crank correlation. It has to be dead on basically. But not a big deal since hpt will relearn crank cam position. I would go speed density. Mafless.

    Another thought if you want to go to ls style coil setup. Look into vortec 8100 stuff. You may be able to make it work but not sure.
    Last edited by RandomEnthusiast; 07-03-2017 at 01:56 AM.

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    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    I agree with what Random says,....the (stock) 60e can't handle the torque that 454 dishes out (it will but, only for a few good romps)...especially the 3-4 clutch pack. 80e is the way to go (do it once and done/no worries then). Unless you have body tunnel clearance issues your concerned about. You can build a 4L60e to handle it,...but, it'll only lengthen your stay a bit longer (and expensive to boot).
    Having just done an engine, trans and 0411 swap - I again agree with Random,....it's simply easier to swap the whole motor, trans, wiring harness over from the donor truck to the Chevelle. IMO, go ahead and put the 99 ECU in and get the Chevelle running on that first (just a few miles to assure everything is running/shifting ok), then swap in the 0411 ECM/start tuning.
    You may only have to look at motor mounts (conversion kits) and moving the trans cross member back a few inches/trans mount and cut/rebalance your drive shaft. Also, with this swap, you'll have to look at wiring your gauges, but, you'd be doing that in either case.
    Sounds like a good project.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

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    Hey guys,

    Thanks for the responses. I am going to head out there on Wednesday, take a lot of pictures and pull a lot of parts. I have to keep my 454, its a fresh build with ported and polished heads and a cam. Fresh bottom end as well. Its supposed to make around 500hp. The 700r4 was a mistake. The 4l60e is not much better but I am having one professionally built to hold 800hp. I just spent a boat load of money on a converter which is why I have to stick with the 4l60e. Wish there was a company that made a harness for this combo... I am going to hate myself when I begin repining the black box with the 0411 plugs.

    Dan

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    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Who's building your trans? The biggest ticket item is your cam/crank correlation sensors which must be installed correctly to assure works. After they're installed correctly, it's simple to use HPTuners to spin/set your dizzy to within +/-2 degrees. All the other sensors (I.e. - TPS, IAC, MAP, MAF, IAT, ECT, Knock, etc.) are easy enough with research.
    The 0411 swap isn't hard bud, just remember,...one-wire-at-a-time. And stop every so often and double check the wires you've swapped to that point,....then double check at completion at least 2 times. I had my wife out there calling out pin#'s as I told her the wire color and vise-versa. One wire off could cause big headaches. Did you contact LexTech to get his pin-out sheet for converting the 99 truck/ECM to 0411? It may help in coordinating the swap.
    I'd pull the entire wiring harness from the 99 truck to have on hand,....it could prove useful.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  6. #6
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    Make sure you're getting 5 pinion planetaries. Legit ones from gm. The cheap ones will blow up in your face. Billet shift servos. 300m input drum and output shaft. Smart shell. Etc. I have a fully built 4l60e but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna toast it with anything more than 450hp even though it's about as built as it can get with parts on the market 4 years ago. Also make sure you can swap the front timing cover and crank reluctor over otherwise tbi time. Knock sensors can be tuned out if you wish since maybe your block doesn't have the place to put them. Map can be vacuum style like the 92 style tbi one's. I don't know what throttle body you're using but make sure you can use a gm tps. I don't know for sure if you can or cannot calibrate the tps.

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Yeah man, ditto on the 4L60e rebuild parts Random stated,...I even imstalled the Sonnax Smart Tech input housing (3-4 clutch pack drum),.....I was desperate not to have another 3-4 clutch pack failure and was willing to try anything. Let us know how you come along with this build (we may be able to help).
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    When I put mine together I could only get a hardened back plate input drum with stock count but yeah. That smart tech drum is badass. No other way to put it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    Who's building your trans? The biggest ticket item is your cam/crank correlation sensors which must be installed correctly to assure works. After they're installed correctly, it's simple to use HPTuners to spin/set your dizzy to within +/-2 degrees. All the other sensors (I.e. - TPS, IAC, MAP, MAF, IAT, ECT, Knock, etc.) are easy enough with research.
    The 0411 swap isn't hard bud, just remember,...one-wire-at-a-time. And stop every so often and double check the wires you've swapped to that point,....then double check at completion at least 2 times. I had my wife out there calling out pin#'s as I told her the wire color and vise-versa. One wire off could cause big headaches. Did you contact LexTech to get his pin-out sheet for converting the 99 truck/ECM to 0411? It may help in coordinating the swap.
    I'd pull the entire wiring harness from the 99 truck to have on hand,....it could prove useful.
    I am sure there are going to be some bumps in the road for me. For example, I just scored a billet cam position sensor but I thought I could just drop it in. Is there a procedure for getting it "into time?" I am trying to be very careful in plumbing the wires one by one, but there are so many documents out there and one thing that's annoying is I thought using the original fuse box from the truck would make it easier, however there are only "How to's" on wiring the actual engine plug. It would be really if I could get a diagram for a 2002 5.3 Silverado so I could see exactly what the fuse box is comprised of. Otherwise its going pretty well so far. I read about what Lextech was doing with the trucks but I decided to just start out with an 0411 from a sliverado... so there is no need to convert a 97-99 harness to match the pins of a 2002 harness. The Ecu is pretty much plug and play. I am familiar with the basics of tuning, I have tuned about 5 cars now with a combination of moates and Hptuners and I have been successful. However, I am told I will need a segment swap and I am unfamiliar with this process; I will be requiring guidance when the time comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomEnthusiast View Post
    Make sure you're getting 5 pinion planetaries. Legit ones from gm. The cheap ones will blow up in your face. Billet shift servos. 300m input drum and output shaft. Smart shell. Etc. I have a fully built 4l60e but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna toast it with anything more than 450hp even though it's about as built as it can get with parts on the market 4 years ago. Also make sure you can swap the front timing cover and crank reluctor over otherwise tbi time. Knock sensors can be tuned out if you wish since maybe your block doesn't have the place to put them. Map can be vacuum style like the 92 style tbi one's. I don't know what throttle body you're using but make sure you can use a gm tps. I don't know for sure if you can or cannot calibrate the tps.
    I ordered a Level 4 transmission for FLT (Finish Line) in Illinois yesterday. We upgraded to the Sonnaxx case. I am told I shouldn't have any issues with my power range and driving style for a long time to come. Car is going to remain on street tires. Unfortunately I can't swap the front timing cover as the gen IV and gen VI are not interchangeable. However I am working with a company that is looking to break into this market that says they will have an external 24x reluctor produced for me within the next 3 weeks (fingers crossed). As for the cam sensor, I am using a Vortec 7400 billet distributor with an efi connection cap. Should do the trick in giving me 24x at the crank and 1x at the cam which is what this car is going need to see to run. I haven't looked too much at the wiring but I am sure its not going to be plug and play so I will have to get Vortec 7400 and Silverado 5.3 diagrams and rewire the harness so it works. I REALLY want to retain the knock sensors, I think they are a great tuning tool and as well as a great safety net. The 0411 ones are front and back... mine are going to have to go left side and right side of the block. I should know this but I am going to ask anyway.... Does anyone know if the 0411 removes timing from just a few cylinders at a time depending on the location of knock, or does it remove timing from all the cylinders at once? I have no idea what throttle body I am using yet either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    Yeah man, ditto on the 4L60e rebuild parts Random stated,...I even imstalled the Sonnax Smart Tech input housing (3-4 clutch pack drum),.....I was desperate not to have another 3-4 clutch pack failure and was willing to try anything. Let us know how you come along with this build (we may be able to help).
    Quote Originally Posted by RandomEnthusiast View Post
    When I put mine together I could only get a hardened back plate input drum with stock count but yeah. That smart tech drum is badass. No other way to put it.
    Went with the Sonnax Smart Tech Input Housing! Hopefully it keeps the trans alive.

    Guys, if you have a moment please check out my thread at Ls1tech.com. I am knee deep in this project at this point, there is no turning back and I am hell bent on getting this to work. I appreciate any thoughts or positive feedback you have. I am really hoping for a positive outcome with this project!!!

    https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...-chevelle.html

    Thanks,

    Dan

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    Sorry for the delayed response guys. I actually made a post but for whatever reason it stated I need "administrator approval" and never posted... so here we go again.

    Ill try and respond one by one instead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    Who's building your trans? The biggest ticket item is your cam/crank correlation sensors which must be installed correctly to assure works. After they're installed correctly, it's simple to use HPTuners to spin/set your dizzy to within +/-2 degrees. All the other sensors (I.e. - TPS, IAC, MAP, MAF, IAT, ECT, Knock, etc.) are easy enough with research.
    The 0411 swap isn't hard bud, just remember,...one-wire-at-a-time. And stop every so often and double check the wires you've swapped to that point,....then double check at completion at least 2 times. I had my wife out there calling out pin#'s as I told her the wire color and vise-versa. One wire off could cause big headaches. Did you contact LexTech to get his pin-out sheet for converting the 99 truck/ECM to 0411? It may help in coordinating the swap.
    I'd pull the entire wiring harness from the 99 truck to have on hand,....it could prove useful.
    I ordered the Transmission Friday from FLT Transmissions in Illinois. Chuck who I believe is the owner was very nice to work with. Hopefully he builds a very nice trans. I have been working on my harness daily. A few people on another forum mentioned that I should go with a standalone but we wanted to avoid the additional cost. I got the whole harness slimmed down and began wiring it into the car today. My father who is working on the project with me couldn't get past how old the junk yard wiring looked, and surprised me with a PSI harness today. Told me to forget the whole mess and the harness was on order. So out this one comes and in the new one will go when it arrives.

    As far as aligning the crank and cam position sensors; I was not aware I would have to do anything other than just drop in the cam sensor. Its a 1x so I figure it only triggers once.. doesn't really matter as far as alignment is concerned??? Am I correct. On one of the other sites a gentlemen from a company called SD Concepts that already produces a 24x reluctor that mounts to MOPAR harmonic balancers of all things thinks he can build an awesome Reluctor and Hall Effect Sensor setup. I've seen his work online and it looks pretty impressive so I have decided to give him a shot at building that. I am confident since he builds them for mopars he will know the exact crank phasing and where the timing marks will have to be aligned; although this portion of the project is still a big concern of mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomEnthusiast View Post
    Make sure you're getting 5 pinion planetaries. Legit ones from gm. The cheap ones will blow up in your face. Billet shift servos. 300m input drum and output shaft. Smart shell. Etc. I have a fully built 4l60e but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna toast it with anything more than 450hp even though it's about as built as it can get with parts on the market 4 years ago. Also make sure you can swap the front timing cover and crank reluctor over otherwise tbi time. Knock sensors can be tuned out if you wish since maybe your block doesn't have the place to put them. Map can be vacuum style like the 92 style tbi one's. I don't know what throttle body you're using but make sure you can use a gm tps. I don't know for sure if you can or cannot calibrate the tps.
    Got all that as well as the Sonnax Case for the larger 3/4 packs. Unfortunately you can't swap the front timing cover and crank reluctor over, that's one of my main issues. The Gen VI block which house the factory reluctor and sensors does not fit on a GEN IV Block which is what I have (pre-1996). That's what makes this project "unique." Otherwise it would just be a matter of pulling all the factory stuff from the vortec 7400 out of the junk yard and installing it on my motor. Fortunately as I mentioned in the previous post I have someone who is familiar with building external custom reluctors. As for the cam sensor I was able to use a capped original vortec 7400 distributor for my 1x signal. Hopefully that will suffice. Also, the knock sensors are very important to me. One of the things I am looking for is that extra protection they offer as well as the ability to tune it close to the edge for extra performance and drivability. I haven't actually looked at the block specifically yet but I can tell you I will use whatever water jacket ports I can first for the knock sensors and figure out as solution for the coolant temp sensors and what not later. As for right now I am using a stock throttle body from an 02 Silverado... in the future we will swap to a 90mm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    Yeah man, ditto on the 4L60e rebuild parts Random stated,...I even imstalled the Sonnax Smart Tech input housing (3-4 clutch pack drum),.....I was desperate not to have another 3-4 clutch pack failure and was willing to try anything. Let us know how you come along with this build (we may be able to help).
    Got the Sonnax Smart Tech! I'm good to go there lol!

    One more thing I wanted to mention. I had planned on going with a Edelbrock Pro Flo EFI intake. Unfortunately they don't offer it for oval port heads. My next best manifold was the accel super ram, but again unfortunately they are impossible to find. I had to go with a Holley EFI intake and a 90 degree elbow. It wasn't want I was looking for but,.. it may make a future project I have in mind later a little easier so I can live with it.

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    At some point we are going to need to have an injector size discussion and more importantly I need an explanation as to the best way to get this thing going while retaining the most amount of stock ECU functions. I am sort of wondering since the motor has no idea what it is why I am told I have to segment swap to a 99 Vortec 7400 and why I can't just change the displacement, timing, and fueling tables from the 5.3 it came out of to the 7.4 it is now... The trans is already setup for a 4l60e fortunately.

    Dan

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    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Yeah, Chuck at FLT is a good guy. I think you'll like the trans,...it sure is puuuurty when you receive it. Did you go Level 5 with the Sonnax Smart Tech?
    I haven't installed my Level 5 yet,...,will be doing today/tomorrow (if the rain down here in Florida holds off - I do all my work in my driveway).
    Sounds like you've potentially found someone to take care of your crank sensor alignment,...I simply mentioned it in passing to assure it was taken care of. I'll try to find the section in my GMService Manual that explains how this alignment can be off/affects,.....I remember reading that section when I replaced all the sensors on my new engine.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    Yeah, Chuck at FLT is a good guy. I think you'll like the trans,...it sure is puuuurty when you receive it. Did you go Level 5 with the Sonnax Smart Tech?
    I haven't installed my Level 5 yet,...,will be doing today/tomorrow (if the rain down here in Florida holds off - I do all my work in my driveway).
    Sounds like you've potentially found someone to take care of your crank sensor alignment,...I simply mentioned it in passing to assure it was taken care of. I'll try to find the section in my GMService Manual that explains how this alignment can be off/affects,.....I remember reading that section when I replaced all the sensors on my new engine.
    That would be great! I want to make sure I have all my ducks in a row so I am not chasing the tune when its a hardware related issue... Also, if anyone runs across a picture with the front of a 454 with all the crank and balancer dimensions, the machine shop I am working with is requesting it for the ring they are building.

    We went for the Level 4 with the Sonnax. Chuck really didn't think for what we were doing with that car that we really needed it. I guess time will tell,

    Thanks for the support

    Dan

  17. #17
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Apologies Danspeed1 for not getting that crank sensor info for you yet bud. I've been working on swapping the trans in my truck - from the locally rebuilt 4L60e over the Chuck's FLT Level 5.

    Only have 363 miles on this new locally rebuilt one,.,and it's toast, no line pressure (confirmed mechanical issue inside trans),...thus smoked the 3-4 clutches and probably scoured the others. Wish I could smoke that local builder a little,...a 96 4x4 trans swap is a chore,....he's already rebuilt it twice. My HT383e ain't that durn strong,....wish it was,....but it's not enough to smoke a trans in 3-400 miles,....especially a "built" one. I spec'd all top/hard parts for it, he assembled,...yet he didn't "assemble" correctly. Yeah, you could say I'm butt hurt.

    Chuck called me last night to follow up on a few things - he said he was building your trans and that you and your dad were good guys. Also said you'd see a big improvement going from that 700 over to his 4L60e.

    Wait till you see Chuck's final product,...man, it's Puuuurty,....if it works half as good as it looks, it'll be one rockin'' trans. I can't wait to roll mine,....let that torque'y motor eat a little.

    I'll try to get that info over the next couple days man,....sounds like you have a few days grace before you get to that sensor, thus, please forgive me for not getting it sooner.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    So how's the swap going?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    Apologies Danspeed1 for not getting that crank sensor info for you yet bud. I've been working on swapping the trans in my truck - from the locally rebuilt 4L60e over the Chuck's FLT Level 5.

    Only have 363 miles on this new locally rebuilt one,.,and it's toast, no line pressure (confirmed mechanical issue inside trans),...thus smoked the 3-4 clutches and probably scoured the others. Wish I could smoke that local builder a little,...a 96 4x4 trans swap is a chore,....he's already rebuilt it twice. My HT383e ain't that durn strong,....wish it was,....but it's not enough to smoke a trans in 3-400 miles,....especially a "built" one. I spec'd all top/hard parts for it, he assembled,...yet he didn't "assemble" correctly. Yeah, you could say I'm butt hurt.

    Chuck called me last night to follow up on a few things - he said he was building your trans and that you and your dad were good guys. Also said you'd see a big improvement going from that 700 over to his 4L60e.

    Wait till you see Chuck's final product,...man, it's Puuuurty,....if it works half as good as it looks, it'll be one rockin'' trans. I can't wait to roll mine,....let that torque'y motor eat a little.

    I'll try to get that info over the next couple days man,....sounds like you have a few days grace before you get to that sensor, thus, please forgive me for not getting it sooner.
    That's awesome!

    Yup! Pretty much just waiting on parts at the moment. We scrapped the junkyard harness idea and ordered one from PSI because my father couldn't get past how the one I made looked. Started wiring it into the car and then the new one just showed up... I will use the jy one as a bench harness as its pretty much already pruned and can be wired in with just a few wires. Waiting on Chuck to finish your trans so he can get to ours LOL! I have a couple of Walbro external fuel pumps for sitting in the basement brand new that were for another project. We decided to use those for this car so I ordered a Aluminum Sump for the tank. We will weld that into the bottom of the tank and it should supply the pumps externally without an issue (I'm hoping). The rear was powder coated, and its at a driveline shop. I wanted to do the gear swap myself but we just have way too much other stuff going on so I we decided to outsource it. The guy who is doing it claims he's done thousands of them and he's only charging a couple of hundred bucks so we figured why spend the time. One of the LS1tech forum members sent me a distributor that has been capped and turned into a CPS so that has been installed along with a Holley EFI manifold. I will try and get a few pictures up within the next couple of days.

    I need to figure out which injectors I need and where to order them from. I want to get those ordered on Monday. I am looking to leave a little room for the future. Also plan on adding flex fuel so I need a set large enough to run E85.

    That's about all that's new for now.

    Dan

  20. #20
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    Check to see if you can use bosch 80's. Turbo ls guys swear by them. They're on my list of things to get for when I get enough to do my ls swap. Also heres a good one for you. Getting a 10 wire 60e to work with a pcm. I'm gonna try it and if I fail so be it.