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Thread: 0411 Swap on Vortec 454

  1. #21
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    Heard my trans will be here Friday!! will post details as soon as I get it

  2. #22
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    So we got the transmission on Saturday. It looks great. I posted a couple of pictures of it on LS1tech but I will try and post a few here as well for those who don't go over there. It looks like a real quality piece. Its actually already installed in the car. We installed it today with the new Edge 3200 converter. I also plugged in the harness for it, and added a set of 02 sensors to the headers while I was under there. Intake and Injectors are installed. Just waiting on the rear, fuel tank sump to come in, and the solution for my reluctor issue.

    I had a question in regard to the knock sensors. On the Vortec 5.3 they are inside the valley cover under the intake. On the Vortec 7400 they are in the block. I am thinking of snipping the connector and sending the light blue and dark blue wire to each side of the block and installing the knock sensors in the block. I understand what knock sensors do, however I do not understand how they work. As luck would have it, the two ports that would fit a knock sensor on each side of the block are blocked by a motor mount (on the left side) and the dipstick (on the right side). So if I were to install a 90 degree fitting in the block and then screw the sensor into that would it function correctly. What's the best way to get this to work right and not desensitize or become overly sensitive? I plan to rely on this things from time to time?

    Dan

  3. #23
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    20170726_132333_resized.jpg20170726_132345_resized.jpg20170731_182922_resized.jpg20170731_182934_resized.jpg20170802_172712_resized.jpg20170802_172754_resized.jpg

    Ignore the small block 350 photo, that's from another car and I can't seem to remove it.

    The tanks out and ready to have the sump welded in

    That's the new FLT Level 4 4L60E... hopefully it lasts longer than the 700r4

    That picture of the block with the plug in it is the one I am referring to. That seems to be the only area a knock sensor could go in. Of course its right up against the motor mount. What's a good solution to that problem?

    Dan
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    Last edited by Danspeed1; 08-02-2017 at 11:54 PM.

  4. #24
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    I think a 90 degree would desensitize it to much. A knock sensor has a piezo crystal inside tuned to certain frequencies aka knock and when it picks it up it fluctuates voltage and the pcm/ecm senses that and drops timing to stop detonation.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomEnthusiast View Post
    I think a 90 degree would desensitize it to much. A knock sensor has a piezo crystal inside tuned to certain frequencies aka knock and when it picks it up it fluctuates voltage and the pcm/ecm senses that and drops timing to stop detonation.

    That's going to be a big problem. I literally have no room on the drivers side for the sensor to screw In. That plug is right up against the motor mount.

    Dan

  6. #26
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Yeah man, that FLT trans is sweet ain't it? AND,...they each get there own serial number from him? Ain't never seen that with anyone else. Mine said FLT5 with a number below it too. The day I got mine,..I bet I went out to the garage 5 times that night to look at it again,...it sure was puuurty and such a professional looking build.

    Chuck dyno tests each trans before he ships, thus, there will be some fluid left in trans (he drains it but, not all of it comes out),.....be careful on your initial fill of trans,...being mindful that there could be 1-3 quarts still left in there. When I got mine, it still had roughly 1.5-2 quarts left in it. Also, since I got my new stock stall converter from him (with Allison hub and weld reinforced), there was roughly half a quart left in there,....thus, I didn't need to put any fluid in the TC (as it was already wet from dyno testing).

    For the knock sensor,....I see your problem with the motor mount. I agree with Random, I don't think a 90 would give the sensitivity you'd need. You mentioned another port near the dipstick? Can you maybe take a tubing bender and massage the dipstick out of the way, to clear the area for the knock sensor? I've done this on past builds,....just be careful and bend a little at a time,...don't go hog wild trying to bend too much of an angle at one time,....and lord, don't try to bend it by hand (ask me how I know ).

    Getting you the crank sensor alignment info,...man, that totally slipped my mind bud,...apologies for that. I've been super busy and it simply slipped off my radar. I'll take the pic today or tomorrow and flick it to you. Apologies again bud.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  7. #27
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Danspeed1, I just did a google search for "alternative knock sensor mounting locations" and found a few threads wherein people are discussing this issue,....kinda hard to determine what would best fit your situation because I can't see the full scope of what you've got there (I.e. Headers being close to potential mounting area, etc),....thus, maybe you can search and see what may fit your application. Hope this helps man. Let us know.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    Danspeed1, I just did a google search for "alternative knock sensor mounting locations" and found a few threads wherein people are discussing this issue,....kinda hard to determine what would best fit your situation because I can't see the full scope of what you've got there (I.e. Headers being close to potential mounting area, etc),....thus, maybe you can search and see what may fit your application. Hope this helps man. Let us know.
    I agree with you on massaging the dipstick. I think the passenger side is going to work out ok, but the drivers side is definitely going to be a problem. I was hoping for a definitive answer on this as I noticed most of the other treads are opinion based. Ill do some reading I guess and see if I can come up with a solution. Doesn't seem like anyone can really say for sure if the sensors will work the same or if they are desensitized.

    Dan

  9. #29
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    I was just thinking this morning,....I did a 0411 swap in my 1996 GMC K1500 5.7L/4L60e (although I swapped the 5.7L to an HT383e crate engine, same/same),...and my setup only required one knock sensor. It's located on the driver's side, halfway down the side of the block, bout middle ways back (from memory).
    Does the 454 require two knock sensors? I haven't worked with a 454 yet, thus, don't know how they're set up. Can you maybe get away with only using one? Just a thought,....figured I'd kick it out there to see if we can get some of our more experienced guys to chime in.
    Also, I read somewhere,....the knock sensors have to be the "right type" to match the various year PCM/matched engines being used? You heard anything bout that?
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hutchinson View Post
    I was just thinking this morning,....I did a 0411 swap in my 1996 GMC K1500 5.7L/4L60e (although I swapped the 5.7L to an HT383e crate engine, same/same),...and my setup only required one knock sensor. It's located on the driver's side, halfway down the side of the block, bout middle ways back (from memory).
    Does the 454 require two knock sensors? I haven't worked with a 454 yet, thus, don't know how they're set up. Can you maybe get away with only using one? Just a thought,....figured I'd kick it out there to see if we can get some of our more experienced guys to chime in.
    Also, I read somewhere,....the knock sensors have to be the "right type" to match the various year PCM/matched engines being used? You heard anything bout that?
    Both great questions honestly. It's alot to consider. My thinking was to use knock sensors from the vortec 7400 even though my 454 is different. My hope was that they would screw right in and be setup for a big block rather than a small block. But you bring up a valid point. The 5.3 vortec the ecu is for is going to read the knock sensors differently, and in fact they are even going to be in a completely different location. I am reading online that the knock sensor can determine which cylinder is knocking and reduce timing at that location. If this is true this brings up a whole new set of problems as the sensors are going to have no idea which cylinder to pull timing from after they are relocated.

    I really wish someone could help us out with some difinite information on this

  11. #31
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    I'm truly talking out my azz here,...cause I don't know,....just kicking round ideas,...but, are you using the 0411 with a 12212156 OS?
    That's what I'm running (though for small block) and it only uses one sensor. Yes sir, that issue you wrote where "it figures out which cyclinder is knocking" is kinda cool/yet potentially troubling,........oh, the wonderful world of modifying. But, that's the fun of it,....I reckon.

    I saw some aftermarket dash mount stuff on the net,....maybe a thought,....but, then again, (like you said) it has to be mounted in the right location to eliminate false knock/give true knock readings.

    This knock sensor thingy is a bit of a tough one to properly answer/help you with. And when I did a little research earlier for you, it all seemed to get a bit garbled up with everyone's different opinions. You may have to call some of these well known hot rod shops and (talking very nicely) ask em',....though they usually don't have time to talk much (they're usually busy with paying customer's work,...which is understandable).

    A stab in the dark is PM "AutoWiz" on here,....he's recently been posting and works at one of those "modified" type shops,...maybe, he's run up on this in the past.

    I'm going out in the garage to see if I can find that crank sensor alignment doc for you,.....now, if I can just remember where the hell I put the durn thing,....hmmmm
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  12. #32
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    Danspeed1,...For the crankshaft position sensor doc I was looking for,..... I just spent the past ~1 hour looking through all my GMService Manuals, and looked through my 5" stack of paperwork/receipts/notes and couldn't find what my mind remembers seeing,.....many beers since then,....hell, I might have even seen it on the net somewhere, for that matter.

    Basically, the doc was saying make sure it's mounted flat on the timing chain cover (drawing showed a depiction of how .5-3 degrees off either way would effect signal),..and also showed depth measurements/sensor measurements/final installed gap requirements between sensor's flat end and curved reluctor wheel.

    I did take pictures of what I found in all my GMService Manuals for you,....which really didn't amount to much,,....it's all common mechanical practices on a simple one bolt item. I'm a bit aggravated with my memory not being able to recall where I saw that drawing at. If I remember, I definitely let you know. But, you've probably already got all that done anyways by now.

    Also, I'll look through all my saved websites to see if it's there somewhere,....maybe.

    IMG_0371.jpgIMG_0373.jpgIMG_0376.jpg
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  13. #33
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    20170805_155752_resized.jpg20170805_155756_resized (1).jpg20170805_155946_resized (1).jpg

    I took a look at the FSM photos you posted. I see how they mount the Vortec 350/454 stuff but unfortunately there is no room behind my timing chain cover to mount the reluctor wheel so I am left with rigging something up externally and mounting the sensor wherever I can to get this thing to work. I am going to take a break from this knock sensor and reluctor issue for a day or two and focus on this instead.

    The rear just came back from a local guy who rebuilt it for us. It looks pretty good. Its a 12 bolt with strange axles, wilwood brakes, a new strange posi unit and 3.55 gears. This project is quickly getting out of control lol!

  14. #34
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    Man,.....that's gonna be a bit difficult not having room for a reluctor. Let us know how it works out (I don't have any ideas/experience on that one). One would think someone out there makes a kit for retrofitting that sensor to your setup,....hope anyway. Maybe someone on here knows something.

    Your rear end builder did a good job on teeth meshing. Perfectly aligned from the pics,....looks good. I put a T&M Perormance (thick) aluminum rear cover with cap lock down bolts on my rear. Looks decent and it locks the rear down a bit. I really didn't need it per say,...just added protection/durability for that Detroit Helicle Locker.

    Your getting there man.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  15. #35
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    See if there are threads on the back of the head for ground straps. Smack a knock sensor off a 4.3l vortec on it and cross fingers if you have the threads.

  16. #36
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    How you coming along with your build DanSpeed1? Just wondering if your close to finding an answer to your knock/crank sensor issues.
    I didn't think about putting the knock sensor in the head,....that may work,....I'm not sure how it would match up with the stock mounting location/sensitivity levels (because I've never done it). It may be close enough, and I agree it's better than nothing,....I'd imagine there would be an offsetting factor between the two locations/sensitivity levels,.....man, that's a tough one. Have you looked into any aftermarket knock sensor systems that'll maybe work with your 0411? You'd think someone would have something that'll work???
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  17. #37
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Just looking at your pics (above) again DanSpeed1,....you've probably already looked at this and crossed it off the "possibilities" list,.....

    But, is there enough metal "meat" on your engine mount to cut away a little crescent shape to make room for the sensor? If so, that'll be a somewhat easy fix,....remove Motor mount bolts, loosen trans mount bolts, jack the engine up a bit, pull the engine mount and hack it up to fit,.....remembering to leave yourself enough space for engine flexing when you rev it up. I can't tell from the pic angle how close/how it's arranged in there in relation to plugged port.

    Just a thought,....which I'm sure you've already looked at.
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  18. #38
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    The stock 96+ 4.3l uses a single knock sensor on the back of the block below the dizzy. Just had that thought and that's the type of sensor most modern gm stuff uses. It's not the big round ones it's a small 2 wire one.

  19. #39
    Advanced Tuner Hutchinson's Avatar
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    Good thinking RandomEnthusiast,...that'll work.

    Simply for my own personal knowledge, you reckon there would be a sensitivity differential/offset between the two mounting locations (side of block vs in head)? If there could be an offset in detection/knock signal amplitude,...my dumbness is wondering how someone could figure out what that differential is/how to incorporate it into their engine functionality/protection,.... I'm imagining (probably wrongly) there could be some type of differential between the two.

    I've never done anything like this before, thus reason I ask. If someone knows, maybe they could include it here to help future people with this same issue. Would be good to know,.....
    Totally restored - 1996 GMC K1500 ext cab, HT383e swap, MPFI spider, 0411 PCM swap, FLT Level 5 4L60e with Sonnax Smart Tech input housing, Tru-Cool 40k transmission cooler with -6AN lines, 1-5/8" Hedman Husler long tube race headers with 2-1/2"ss dual exhaust, rebuilt 3.73 rear axle with Yukon/Detroit Helical locker, 6" ProComp lift with steering stabilizer and rear traction bars, 35x12.50x15 BFG All Terrains, Perma-Cool e-fans, etc, etc, etc,..

  20. #40
    Advanced Tuner RandomEnthusiast's Avatar
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    If Danspeed has a tune he's going to use it would be awesome if he could post it and I'll look into finding out how to play with sensitivity and all that fun stuff for setting up the 2 wire knock sensor.