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Thread: Dodge tuning w/ ANN, InjPW v Fuel Mass, spark advance

  1. #1
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    Dodge tuning w/ ANN, InjPW v Fuel Mass, spark advance

    Per several requests I'm going to attempt to explain how I tune w/ ANN on in some of the later model Mopars. By no means am I the "end all" of Dodge tuners. That is far from the case. There guys way smarter than me out there. I don't want this to turn into a ANN vs VE tuning thread. I just want to share a few basic concepts for Mopars and how they do their fueling. Most of this will be Hellcat related, but it applies to pretty much everything else. The process and the principles are the same.

    Dodge uses F/A ratio instead of air fuel ratio. To find out what your stoich value is in normal terms, take 1.0 and divide by your FA stoich value, for a Hellcat it's .0722

    1.0/.0722=13.85
    cat1.jpg


    For WOT fueling Dodge uses multipliers that are added to the FA Stoich to achieve a desired value. To find out what your commanded WOT FA is, add your vs Aircharge vs RPM or vs PRatio vs RPM value to your FA stoich. Now these two tables are different and apparently the PCM uses both or either or but I have no idea under what circumstance. So I set both tables the same. I'm not saying that's right/wrong that's just how I do it. This is a screenshot of stock Hellcat tables.

    cat2.jpg

    .0722+.0110=.0832
    1.0/.0832=12.02 AFR
    If you want to know what your commanded EQ is, 12.02/13.85=.87(rounded up)



    To adjust fueling with ANN on you need to create a histogram for either STFT or STFT/LTFT if doing a Hellcat or Lambda Err if doing WOT tuning on anything else.

    First look at your InjPW v Fuel Mass table. Make sure however you have it setup in Editor is the same way you are logging it in Scanner and have it setup in the Histo. I typically use grams
    cat3.jpg


    In Scanner create a new Histo, select the STFT/LTFT(Math) parameter
    For your Row axis select Fuel Mass Cyl 1(you should be logging it in the Channel in grams)
    Take the InjPW v Fuel Mass column values and put them in.
    cat4.jpg

    When you get done your Histo should look similar to this.
    cat5.jpg


    Copy the Histo
    cat6.jpg


    Paste into Editor
    cat7.jpg



    Now this is important! You need to copy the injPW values and make the same changes in the inverse table, Fuel Mass vs InjPw. Now it use to be A LOT easier to compare these two tables prior to 3.2 but ever since then it's been a debacle IMO, but I digress.

    cat8.jpgcat9.jpg


    Reasons why your histo might not work
    1. You are not logging the correct PID in Scanner
    2. The units are not the same in the Channel as they are in the histo
    3. Fuel Mass data not entered correctly in the histo

    Exactly what are you doing tuning this way?
    For any given Fuel Mass the PCM will open the Injector for a period of time to achieve that fuel mass. That's why it's a InjPW v. Fuel Mass table
    cat10.jpg

    You use the STFT/LTFT to see how much the PCM is having to adjust to achieve it's desired fueling. It's no different than tuning a MAF. You adjusted your actual fueling to achieve your commanded.
    You only adjust the InjPW, not the fuel mass. (There are some people that do but I haven't had to so far)
    Last edited by Jay@HAP; 08-08-2017 at 08:27 AM.

  2. #2
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    Great

    what about other than Hellcat, how to turn O2 sensors on while WOT ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulaziz_pe View Post
    Great

    what about other than Hellcat, how to turn O2 sensors on while WOT ?
    The Hellcat's are the only cars with factory widebands so they are the only ones that can do WOT fueling via the STFT.

    This evening when I have time I'll post how to setup a histogram using an aftermarket wideband. It's like any other car, you can't tune WOT with narrowband 02's

    It's actually pretty easy, you use the same histogram but instead of using STFT/LTFT you use Lambda Err. That will show a % like a fuel trim would and you adjust the InjPW tables the same way.

    I'm also going to do a spark table for P/T and WOT

  4. #4
    Tuner Ohioc5's Avatar
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    I'm in for P/T base spark table, MBT spark table and Min Spark TqRed.
    What ever I can get, I'll be happy.
    Nice of you to do this Jay.
    Thank you
    2016 Hellcat - 800 Miles - It's winter

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    I'm trying to set this up on my scanner. I don't see "STFT/LTFT(Math) parameter".

    I see the following:

    LTFT + STFT

    Nothing with the '/' symbol in the Math section.

    http://imgur.com/z6oWUbS

  6. #6
    Tuner Ohioc5's Avatar
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    It's in the maths section.

    http://imgur.com/a/LpdNF
    2016 Hellcat - 800 Miles - It's winter

  7. #7
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    Okay cool, making sure I got the right. Being under under the Math section and putting a '/' in place of the '+' threw me off :P

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    This isn't so much for the Hellcat's but for anything else Dodge that doesn't have factory W/B. Remember this is for tuning with the NN, ANN, Artificial Neural Network ON!

    1. Make sure you have your aftermarket W/B setup in Lambda and showing in the Scanner. This has been covered multiple times so I won't go into it.
    2. Make sure you are logging Commanded EQ.
    3. Open up your histo's and single click on your STFT/LTFT v Fuel Mass histo, then click on the equals sign near the top of the window. This copies the histo
    cat13.jpg
    4. Now you need to change the parameter you are logging, select it and find EQ Error Ratio
    cat12.jpg
    5. Now you have a histo for WOT tuning which is displayed the same way as STFT/LTFT's
    cat14.jpg

  9. #9
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Thanks for all this info Jay@HAP.
    I've learned quite a bit from your post.

  10. #10
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Question about the InjPW vs. Fuel Mass table and the axis.
    I've noticed the table for my 2014 Charger R/T has a Fuel Mass range of:
    0.0000
    0.0012
    0.0026
    0.0030
    0.0036
    0.0041
    0.0047
    0.0053
    0.0063
    0.0076
    0.0098
    0.0142
    0.3509
    0.6874
    1.0240
    The max never went above .060g and spent most of the time around .0100-.0200g.
    Is there any benefit from altering this range?

  11. #11
    Tuner AWEBB's Avatar
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    Just guessing without seeing your tune (you should post it here). The last 3 in the table will never happen so neglect them. The 4th from the bottom is an extreme (probably will never happen either). Here are mine from a Hellcat: 0 0.00034375 0.001921875 0.003390625 0.004875 0.006078125 0.006890625 0.008796875 0.011 0.01290625 0.016640625 0.02 0.025203125 0.142484375 0.355484375
    Current project:
    2016 Hellcat Charger over the 200 mph...
    Email: andrewwebb810@att.net

  12. #12
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Ah yes, I have to remember to attached tunes and logs.
    MattL 2014 Charger RT_006_CATSOFF.hpt

    Thanks for the info Andrew. I can see the spread on your values is much more consistent.
    Are these the original values for the Hellcat?

    Mattech AWEBB
    0.0000 0.0000
    0.0012 0.0003
    0.0026 0.0019
    0.0030 0.0034
    0.0036 0.0049
    0.0041 0.0061
    0.0047 0.0069
    0.0053 0.0088
    0.0063 0.0110
    0.0076 0.0129
    0.0098 0.0166
    0.0142 0.0200
    0.3509 0.0252
    0.6874 0.1425
    1.0240 0.3555

  13. #13
    Tuner AWEBB's Avatar
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    These are the original Hellcat amounts. I haven't fine tuned anything yet. Been busy learning from The Tuning School about Hellcats. I put together a word document on how to tune basically everything on the Hellcat but I can not attach it. The table with grams is for part throttle tuning and dialing-in the fueling with in 3-5% accuracy. WOT is not done with this sheet or on a dyno. You would add or subtract to the Power Enrich table for WOT. Whatever mods you want to do is what you will have to change in your tune.
    Current project:
    2016 Hellcat Charger over the 200 mph...
    Email: andrewwebb810@att.net

  14. #14
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWEBB View Post
    These are the original Hellcat amounts.
    That makes sense. That range seems to cover the adjustment area much better.
    However, I did find that I can't just drop that range in and go. The fuel mass data is too far off and wouldn't even start up.
    I made an Excel tool to interpolate the starting fuel mass range based on a known working table.
    I'd appreciate any feedback or alternate methods.
    InjPWvsFuelMass Converter.xlsx
    Capture.JPG

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattechperf View Post
    That makes sense. That range seems to cover the adjustment area much better.
    However, I did find that I can't just drop that range in and go. The fuel mass data is too far off and wouldn't even start up.
    I made an Excel tool to interpolate the starting fuel mass range based on a known working table.
    I'd appreciate any feedback or alternate methods.
    InjPWvsFuelMass Converter.xlsx
    Capture.JPG
    You did the inverse table too right with those updated values?

  16. #16
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    Some good stuff being discussed in here.

  17. #17
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSwezey View Post
    You did the inverse table too right with those updated values?
    Yes I did. That was the first thing I checked because I HAVE forgotten that before.
    I'm sure that when I just dumped in different InjPW numbers, the FuelMass numbers were so far off it just plain "no way, Jose".

  18. #18
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    Some good stuff being discussed in here.
    Agreed. This is all very helpful. And I've got a headache of a tune ahead of me to straighten out this 6-71 blower setup of mine.
    So, I'm trying to learn everything I can.

  19. #19
    Tuner AWEBB's Avatar
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    Mattechperf, lets go back to the basics. What version of HP Tuners are you running? I can't open your tune that you posted above. I can open anything that I have ever tuned but not yours. Do me a favor and get the latest rev. 3.6.x and upgrade your software, then post your tune. (I will try to remember NOT to use 3.7beta when looking at your tune). My program is bombing out at the ZF8HP TCU load of your tune. Also, looking at the excel table, one would assume that you have installed larger injectors? Thanks,
    Current project:
    2016 Hellcat Charger over the 200 mph...
    Email: andrewwebb810@att.net

  20. #20
    how's everyone addressing the knock sensors. I seem to get knock even when I pull timing from effected area.