Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 88

Thread: Dodge tuning w/ ANN, InjPW v Fuel Mass, spark advance

  1. #61
    little bit confused here

    trying to optimize the fuel trims for my 2014 JK Auto pentastar,
    cant get the EQ Err to log anything, the LTFT against Fuel mass showing all rich while in the LTFT table it shoes some lean areas

    another point, spark advancing affects fuel trims ?
    i have advanced the PT and WOT tables little bit to use 93 octane and i can see now some lean cells while before i didn't have any, only change is spark tables

    can some one please have a look on attached log and tell me what am i doing wrong ?

    thank you guys

  2. #62
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    GA USA
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by RedShark_JK View Post
    little bit confused here

    trying to optimize the fuel trims for my 2014 JK Auto pentastar,
    cant get the EQ Err to log anything, the LTFT against Fuel mass showing all rich while in the LTFT table it shoes some lean areas

    another point, spark advancing affects fuel trims ?
    i have advanced the PT and WOT tables little bit to use 93 octane and i can see now some lean cells while before i didn't have any, only change is spark tables

    can some one please have a look on attached log and tell me what am i doing wrong ?

    thank you guys
    Your part throttle fuel trims will be done with LTFT + STFT as you have set in your scanner. The EQ your trying to log isn't going to show anything as you don't have anything designating what the para is. For WOT fueling you'll need a wideband at then you'll be able to log EQ as the wideband and make the proper adjustments.

    For good part throttle data you need to be in 4th gear in that JK with easy throttle transitions on a nice flat road and if you have to use the brake to "load" the vehicle.

    Spark has nothing to do with AFR ratios.

    If you need anything else or have questions DM me.

    PS.....when you post a data log also post your current tune file as well.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Mag0842 View Post
    Your part throttle fuel trims will be done with LTFT + STFT as you have set in your scanner. The EQ your trying to log isn't going to show anything as you don't have anything designating what the para is. For WOT fueling you'll need a wideband at then you'll be able to log EQ as the wideband and make the proper adjustments.

    For good part throttle data you need to be in 4th gear in that JK with easy throttle transitions on a nice flat road and if you have to use the brake to "load" the vehicle.

    Spark has nothing to do with AFR ratios.

    If you need anything else or have questions DM me.

    PS.....when you post a data log also post your current tune file as well.
    Thanks for your reply,

    I tried to optimize fuel trims, smoothed spark tables and added some degrees for 93 Octane and made another log,
    tune file attached also, tried to DM you but cant upload files

    appreciate your time and feed back looking in attached files
    Last edited by RedShark_JK; 02-01-2020 at 05:12 AM.

  4. #64
    any one ?

    @Hemituna could you please have a look whenever you have time ?
    Last edited by RedShark_JK; 01-24-2020 at 10:35 PM. Reason: @Hemituna

  5. #65
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post


    To adjust fueling with ANN on you need to create a histogram for either STFT or STFT/LTFT if doing a Hellcat or Lambda Err if doing WOT tuning on anything else.
    What parameter would you use if lambda error isn't available?
    Last edited by gokart2; 08-04-2020 at 06:37 PM.

  6. #66
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    873
    Quote Originally Posted by gokart2 View Post
    What parameter would you use if lambda error isn't available?
    If you have your wideband correctly selected as a PID then lambda error should be available.

  7. #67
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Homer View Post
    If you have your wideband correctly selected as a PID then lambda error should be available.
    First off, thanks for the reply! Second, my wideband is reading and logging via VCM Scanner. But searching lambda error results in nothing found. Attached is where I'd imagine it should be? Was thinking EQ error? That populates the table a little bit. My only other thought is that I am logging AFR, not lambda. Wondering if that could be why?

    Annotation 2020-08-05 170628.png

  8. #68
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    873
    Quote Originally Posted by gokart2 View Post
    First off, thanks for the reply! Second, my wideband is reading and logging via VCM Scanner. But searching lambda error results in nothing found. Attached is where I'd imagine it should be? Was thinking EQ error? That populates the table a little bit. My only other thought is that I am logging AFR, not lambda. Wondering if that could be why?

    Annotation 2020-08-05 170628.png
    I don't think is shows up in the channel but in graph/charts it is math that uses commanded and measured EQ.
    EQ.JPG

  9. #69
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    41
    So I should be ok using eq ratio error, just switch to lambda? Just trying to get an idea about leaning out wot fueling a little. Thought I could just adjust pe enrichment...lol.

  10. #70
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    Per several requests I'm going to attempt to explain how I tune w/ ANN on in some of the later model Mopars. By no means am I the "end all" of Dodge tuners. That is far from the case. There guys way smarter than me out there. I don't want this to turn into a ANN vs VE tuning thread. I just want to share a few basic concepts for Mopars and how they do their fueling. Most of this will be Hellcat related, but it applies to pretty much everything else. The process and the principles are the same.

    Dodge uses F/A ratio instead of air fuel ratio. To find out what your stoich value is in normal terms, take 1.0 and divide by your FA stoich value, for a Hellcat it's .0722

    1.0/.0722=13.85
    Attachment 72244


    For WOT fueling Dodge uses multipliers that are added to the FA Stoich to achieve a desired value. To find out what your commanded WOT FA is, add your vs Aircharge vs RPM or vs PRatio vs RPM value to your FA stoich. Now these two tables are different and apparently the PCM uses both or either or but I have no idea under what circumstance. So I set both tables the same. I'm not saying that's right/wrong that's just how I do it. This is a screenshot of stock Hellcat tables.

    Attachment 72245

    .0722+.0110=.0832
    1.0/.0832=12.02 AFR
    If you want to know what your commanded EQ is, 12.02/13.85=.87(rounded up)



    To adjust fueling with ANN on you need to create a histogram for either STFT or STFT/LTFT if doing a Hellcat or Lambda Err if doing WOT tuning on anything else.

    First look at your InjPW v Fuel Mass table. Make sure however you have it setup in Editor is the same way you are logging it in Scanner and have it setup in the Histo. I typically use grams
    Attachment 72246


    In Scanner create a new Histo, select the STFT/LTFT(Math) parameter
    For your Row axis select Fuel Mass Cyl 1(you should be logging it in the Channel in grams)
    Take the InjPW v Fuel Mass column values and put them in.
    Attachment 72247

    When you get done your Histo should look similar to this.
    Attachment 72248


    Copy the Histo
    Attachment 72249


    Paste into Editor
    Attachment 72250



    Now this is important! You need to copy the injPW values and make the same changes in the inverse table, Fuel Mass vs InjPw. Now it use to be A LOT easier to compare these two tables prior to 3.2 but ever since then it's been a debacle IMO, but I digress.

    Attachment 72251Attachment 72252


    Reasons why your histo might not work
    1. You are not logging the correct PID in Scanner
    2. The units are not the same in the Channel as they are in the histo
    3. Fuel Mass data not entered correctly in the histo

    Exactly what are you doing tuning this way?
    For any given Fuel Mass the PCM will open the Injector for a period of time to achieve that fuel mass. That's why it's a InjPW v. Fuel Mass table
    Attachment 72253

    You use the STFT/LTFT to see how much the PCM is having to adjust to achieve it's desired fueling. It's no different than tuning a MAF. You adjusted your actual fueling to achieve your commanded.
    You only adjust the InjPW, not the fuel mass. (There are some people that do but I haven't had to so far)
    I just wanted to say thank you for this post, as I begin my journey into fueling of larger injector's this was invaluable information! Even with FIC 1200cc injector data properly entered the car still was pulling 12% plus stft at idle startup through warmup where ltft kicked in and pulled it within 3%, using method above, reset adaptives and startup trims were close, i have plenty to learn yet but wanted to thank jay and everyone who shares information, on with my journey!

  11. #71
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Detroit
    Posts
    41
    I agree

  12. #72
    Senior Tuner
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, Md
    Posts
    1,200
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    It depends on the car. As a "general" rule Dodge knock sensors are more sensitive than GM and Fords. The knock sensors are on a 5v scale, and if you look at the stock thresholds they are pretty low.

    I usually watch the knock sensor voltages and see what they are doing when the PCM "thinks" it's knocking. If they are showing like 1.5 volts and the thresholds are stock, more than likely it's not knocking. If its showing 2.5+ volts there's a good possibility it is knocking.

    You can pull some timing out in that area and see what it does or as you mentioned put higher octane fuel in it.
    So your saying Knock Threshold tables almost always should be moved up to values of 1.5v as a minimum or in that area at least?
    Factory Stock 97 SS M6 13.51 @ 104.3 mph
    Stock Longblock LS1 w/ 233/238 P.S.I. Cam
    10.81 @ 126.9 Full interior, six speed on 275 radials, a decade ago

    '99 TA trunk mounted 76mm 6 Liter
    9.0s in '09 @ 153 MPH

    Turbo 5.3 Volvo 740 Wagon
    32psi and still winding out 5th on the highway somewhere

  13. #73
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    558
    Im a little confused now.
    After installing a Torqstorm and try to dial in the stock injectors I fail every time.
    No matter what I rescaling, it ends up at 18.7 AFR in idle.
    Cold start is at 14.7 with 5ms inj timing. After CL starts it falls to 2.5 ms .
    What holds back the injectors to open up the timing?
    Yes, the injectors are a little small, but have to work up to OL.
    I have installed a 6.4 cam and 6.1 Intake earlier and have no problems with rescaling so far.

  14. #74
    Senior Tuner Ben Charles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Calibrating
    Posts
    3,371
    Post the tune, doing something wrong, bc that should be easy

    Are you using the same units?? I tune in Mg

    Email Tunes, [email protected]
    96 TA Blown/Stroked, 4L80E/Fab 9
    15 C7 A8 H/C 2.3 Blower/PI
    14 Gen 5 Viper
    Custom Mid Engine chassis, AKA GalBen C

  15. #75
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    558
    3.hpl

    testProcharger2bar.hpt

    test map and inj pulsewidth.

    something said go lean, but 02s are at 0,95V

  16. #76
    Tuner in Training
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    34
    In my limited experience, I have found it good to have an aftermarket WB anyways as the commanded EQ can differ by quite a bit from what is actually being delivered. The aircharge vs PRatio table has always been problematic for me too. I have found that aircharge seems to be used for PT more and PRatio is more for WOT excursions. After I work on fuel in the transients section I will make small adjustments in aircharge as it seems to help fill in when you exceed the transient Throttle and mapped based fueling. Makes the fuel cuts between gears less dramatic on the automatics.

  17. #77
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    925
    Quote Originally Posted by f.creek-ranch View Post
    3.hpl

    testProcharger2bar.hpt

    test map and inj pulsewidth.

    something said go lean, but 02s are at 0,95V
    Do you have the stock tune so we can see what all has been changed?

    So you know you shouldn't go into boost with stock injectors right?

  18. #78
    hope can help
    Attached Files Attached Files

  19. #79
    Advanced Tuner
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    873
    Quote Originally Posted by Yousef Al Kallaf View Post
    hope can help
    Help with what? All you attached was a stock tune. The instructions on how to set up VCM scanner to tweak injector tables is given in the first post. BTW for WOT tuning you should be running a aftermarket wideband O2 sensor.

  20. #80
    Advanced Tuner f.creek-ranch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    558
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@HAP View Post
    Do you have the stock tune so we can see what all has been changed?

    So you know you shouldn't go into boost with stock injectors right?
    ---my fault--- just a loosen plug of one injector ;-)