Dodge tuning w/ ANN, InjPW v Fuel Mass, spark advance

[christianreid22]

Hi there, great info presented here. I have a question to further WOT Tuning without using a dyno to measure whp/wtq output. What is a good indicator you are on the right track slowly increasing WOT timing through each revision? Just keep going until Knock is measured?

With logging WOT spark in the histo... doesn't this just populate averages? How would you use that data to make changes to the tables in editor?

[GrannySShifting]

Hi there, great info presented here. I have a question to further WOT Tuning without using a dyno to measure whp/wtq output. What is a good indicator you are on the right track slowly increasing WOT timing through each revision? Just keep going until Knock is measured?

With logging WOT spark in the histo... doesn't this just populate averages? How would you use that data to make changes to the tables in editor?

Absolutely not a good indicator. The ONLY reliable indicator is a tool that accurately measures torque. You can hit best power at 20 degrees, and car might still take up to 27 degrees and not knock and make less power the further it gets away from 20 anyway. I tend not to put timing in cars just because I can although lots do Thats also why lots think their head gaskets arent good enough for "the power they are making" LOL Also on a dyno you might find you can be down at say 19 degrees for example in the middle of rpm band and it loses no torque - but that allows you to feed say 26 degrees timing in it which makes best power up top. If you just stuck 23 degrees in it down low just because you could the heat it builds in cylinder might then only allow you 23 up top before it knocks so your losing power up there

[PurpleRam]

[QUOTE=christianreid22;707033]

With logging WOT spark in the histo... doesn't this just populate averages? How would you use that data to make changes to the tables in editor?[/QUOTUte]
Yes, if you look at the top of the chart, you’ll see a + - A C , + is max value, - is minimum, A is average, C is for count.

[PurpleRam]

Hi there, great info presented here. I have a question to further WOT Tuning without using a dyno to measure whp/wtq output. What is a good indicator you are on the right track slowly increasing WOT timing through each revision? Just keep going until Knock is measured?

With logging WOT spark in the histo... doesn't this just populate averages? How would you use that data to make changes to the tables in editor?

1st thing the small bores need less spark advance then large ones, 5.7s(3.917-3.957) need about 2* less then 4.055-4.09 bore 6.1-6.4s
Actual WOT logs are the best way..... but If you log power train torque request, and engine load, you’ll be able to tell if you’re headed in the right direction.

But keep in mind unless you’re running mega compression and 110+ fuel 5.7s don’t need more then 24* to make peak power, also keep in mind those large spark #s you see in the lower map/aircharge part of the table(s) are for emissions, to clean up unburned fuel when you’re off the throttle

[jeepingsteve]

Question. I understand the spark tables and knock sensors. My question is under engine-spark-retard there is knock mode table 2023 for global knock or per cylinder knock. Any preference or experience one way or the other

[arieljrxd]

Hi Jay@HAP
Thank you for going in depth with this. I'm barely starting into tuning my own car as I am not satisfied with my dyno tune from a performance shop, my car is a 2021 Dodge Challenger Scatpack. Hellcat Injectors, Ported Throttle Body, Ported Intake Manifold, Long Tube headers with hi-flow cats and on E85.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Since I am running hellcat injectors I can copy your stock values for Inj PW vs Fuel Mass?

[LilSick]

iirc hellcat has a different os

it is scaled differently

has a different number of cells

[ramdart74]

Would adjusting fueling with NN off be the same, LTFT/STFT v fuel mass? or should I be doing the VE tables, just change injectors want to much sure i am going to do it the right way. I started with the VE tables using a wideband and o2's off, and got it pretty close. But once i put the o2's back on fuel trims are off, but the wideband still looks pretty good. So for PT should I be doing LTFT/STFT error with the VE tables? or fuel mass? Thanks