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Thread: Dodge tuning w/ ANN, InjPW v Fuel Mass, spark advance

  1. #21
    Tuner Scottyb_288's Avatar
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    Desensitizing the knock sensor thresholds.
    Last edited by Scottyb_288; 09-29-2017 at 12:36 PM.

  2. #22
    Tuner Scottyb_288's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattechperf View Post
    That makes sense. That range seems to cover the adjustment area much better.
    However, I did find that I can't just drop that range in and go. The fuel mass data is too far off and wouldn't even start up.
    I made an Excel tool to interpolate the starting fuel mass range based on a known working table.
    I'd appreciate any feedback or alternate methods.
    Attachment 73481
    Attachment 73482
    Did you flash the vehicle with this injector data? Did it start and run?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyb_288 View Post
    Desensitizing the knock sensor thresholds.
    multiplying or dividing by how much ?

  4. #24
    2x on my car and only in the wot area. So a little sliver of the table.

  5. #25
    Are you going to flesh out the spark side of this how to?

  6. #26
    Tuner AWEBB's Avatar
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    Open the knock sensor tables, select the entire table and time it by 50%. Problem solved. Run good gas.
    Current project:
    2016 Hellcat Charger over the 200 mph...
    Email: andrewwebb810@att.net

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshCP527 View Post
    Are you going to flesh out the spark side of this how to?
    ?

  8. #28
    Tuner Scottyb_288's Avatar
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    Think he was trying to ask if you were going to finish with the spark advance side of this how to that you mention in the title. In other news i believe the conversion excel file that mattechperf posted is backwards or thr column labels are wrong. Someone please correct me if im out of line.

  9. #29
    Tuner AWEBB's Avatar
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    I'll answer the spark side...Here is where we get into the only human intervention portion of tuning with ANN. You have to be able to recognize the difference in-between real knock and amplified noise. If you left the car stock and use good 93 fuel then simply desentizing the two "kockers" (slang for knock sensors) are going to get or net you a minimal amount of more WOT timing. (the weird part is there are tables for all cylinders and only two sensors that pull timing out of the entire system(short term and long term calcs. are performed)(and cylinder #1 has the lowest voltage numbers of all the cylinders) meaning it allows the least amount of knock before effecting the short term.
    3. Engine / Spark / Advance
    a. Part Throttle / PT Base -.23 Aircharge and 760 rpm to .47 Aircharge and 4700 rpm add 2.
    b. Then smooth from 1.16 to 5992.
    1. Engine / Spark / Advance
    a. WOT Spark / WOT Base – add 2? at 1.5 and 2854 to 5606
    b. WOT Spark / WOT Base – add 1? at 1.4 to 1.45 and 3360 to 5190
    c. Smooth Table – 1.25 to 1.50 and 2434 to (max) 6208
    Watch tailpipe for black smoke for pre detonation.
    This section will decrease the sensitivity of the knock sensors to help prevent timing from being pulled for no reason. Increasing these number by 50% is virtually nothing.
    2. Engine / Spark / Knock Sensors
    a. Knock Threshold / Cyl 1 (table) – 2800 rpms to (max) 6208 multiply by 1.5
    b. Knock Threshold / Cyl 2-8 (table) – 2800 rpms to (max) 6208 multiply by 1.5
    Current project:
    2016 Hellcat Charger over the 200 mph...
    Email: andrewwebb810@att.net

  10. #30
    I just street tuned it not finalized but got it driving. 20 max and 3300 to the 4300 cell are at 10. I had knock sensor sensitivity multiplied by 2.5 with 15lbs and with 17 I bumped it down to 2x. With another car the 93 tune I did till he could get e85 it was 4deg to 10deg max and the knock sensors were very tame.I did 2x on them but could of gotten away with 1.5 they didn't really make a peep. I got to rent a dyno to finalize some numbers tho. I even pulled plugs on my car and scoped the bores before I desensitized the sensors or did the pulley and e85 swap because of false knock stock.

  11. #31
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    What would be the best histo for Jeep wrangler 3.6L for both P/T and WOT w/ANN on?

    At the moment I have LTFT + STFT (math) against fuel mass selected used for P/T tuning and EQ error for WOT, what if I change the LTFT + STFT and (math) to LTFT sensor only, would that help in P/T fine tuning?

  12. #32
    Tuner AWEBB's Avatar
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    EK15, Yes, LTFT (sensor) only and fuel mass cyl 1 should help you fine tune P/T's within 5% and over achievers get it with in 3% aka "fine tuning". LTFT Fuel Mass.JPG
    Current project:
    2016 Hellcat Charger over the 200 mph...
    Email: andrewwebb810@att.net

  13. #33
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWEBB View Post
    I can't open your tune that you posted above...My program is bombing out at the ZF8HP TCU load
    It looks like the newest version of Editor works on this file now. Sounds like there were some definition files that needed to be added.

  14. #34
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottyb_288 View Post
    Did you flash the vehicle with this injector data? Did it start and run?
    Yes I did and it worked fine as if no changes were made. Then I was able to start adjusting using the method Jay showed.

  15. #35
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWEBB View Post
    Open the knock sensor tables, select the entire table and time it by 50%. Problem solved. Run good gas.
    Just for clarification: Do you mean
    adding 50% (from 1.00 to 1.50)
    or reducing by 50%? (from 1.00 to 0.50)

  16. #36
    Tuner Chevy406's Avatar
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    Thank you so much for taking the time to show your process for logging and calibrating the fuel mass. This thread has really helped me grasp the Dodge fuel tuning.

  17. #37
    Tuner AWEBB's Avatar
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    Mattechperf,
    From 1 to 1.5. Or if you multiply 1 x 1.5 which is a 50% increase to the table specified above. You know, like figuring sales tax on an item. Lets say your state had 6% sales tax and the taxable item you wanted was $9.99. Multiply $9.99 x 1.06 and you get the total with the tax included...hope this helps.
    Current project:
    2016 Hellcat Charger over the 200 mph...
    Email: andrewwebb810@att.net

  18. #38
    Tuner Mattechperf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWEBB View Post
    Mattechperf,
    From 1 to 1.5. Or if you multiply 1 x 1.5 which is a 50% increase to the table specified above. You know, like figuring sales tax on an item. Lets say your state had 6% sales tax and the taxable item you wanted was $9.99. Multiply $9.99 x 1.06 and you get the total with the tax included...hope this helps.
    Perfect. Thank you!
    Everyone speaks in different terms and it's easy to misinterpret.

  19. #39
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    catspark1.jpgcatspark2.jpgcatspark3.jpgcatspark4.jpg

    The cat's have 2 spark tables. (All Mopars do to my knowledge) One for part throttle and the other for WOT. When you are in PE it uses the WOT table.

    The P/T table has more resolution and shows a lower aircharge than the WOT table even though they both go up to 1.50g

    Make sure that you are logging aircharge in grams in the scanner.

    To setup the histo gram for P/T, select spark advance for the PID. For Row select aircharge, make sure it's in grams and copy the Row axis (aircharge) from the P/T spark table. For the column select RPM, copy the column axis (RPM) from the P/T spark table and that's it.

    Select the "=" tab to clone that histo and changed the Row axis values to match the WOT Spark table.

    I also make a Spark Retard histo.
    Last edited by Jay@HAP; 10-23-2017 at 12:32 PM.

  20. #40
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    Depending on the ECU, instead of using aircharge in the spark table, MAP kpa is used and "I think" P Ratio in some but I'm not 100% on that.

    Regardless setting up the histo is is the same. Just use the correct PID on for the Row axis.