So I continue to tweak this thing, richened it up, worked on the MAF a little (guessing on period since I cannot log it), upped the rpm limit. On my last pull in 3rd gear just as I got close to 80lb/min of airflow the throttle closed on me. Now I have VERY little PIDs I can log (already emailed support), but can anyone see an obvious limit I could be hitting in the tune that I should change?
Last edited by 06300CSRT8; 08-25-2017 at 02:43 PM.
I am guessing its a IPC Max torque limit I am hitting. There is an option in the Flare tool from Whipple to turn off "overload limiting" which monitors airflow vs torque output. I am guessing this is monitoring IPC torque error and if it gets too high starts to close the throttle. I will try that first, then next try to max out my own IPC torque error limit (Whipple sets it at 18,000)
There is definitely some cool stuff Whipple did with the BCM, most of the settings in their flare tool make their changes here. I raised the PCM's rev limit and didn't change the Flare tool limit and I still hit the rev limit (7400) set by the Flare tool well before my PCM limit of 7800. Would be pretty cool to see HP Tuners have these controls in the special functions of the VCM scanner in time.
The only other thing could be a fuel supply limit I am hitting. I added about 3% to the MAF and also commanded 0.80 lambda (versus stock 0.82). Since I added a boost a pump, should I be editing the fuel rail pressure versus fuel demand tables? I should really be seeing little if any fuel pressure drop with the BAP running, and changing this table would let the PCM know I have ample fuel.
If you have the flare tool kill all of the built in whipple limits - they themselves will kill throttle/fuel and put it into REP... Then all you need to worry about are the regular limits. What is your exact setup per say - boost, tb, cold air, headers, cat delete?
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
Thanks will do.
Full setup is Arh catless headers, Whipple stage 2, which is the 132mm throttle body and their cold air sealed air box and MAF (123mm I believe), 3.625 upper pulley, stock lower, 10 rib setup. Just wired in my 3 bar map but based on my MAF readings I am around 12-13psi.
Other non important mods are Mantic twin disc, DSS alum driveshaft and 1400hp axles, Steeda linear springs and their shocks, and their shifter and stop the hop suspension setup.
This should be really close to what you need then... If it's a 15' GT that is... Even has some of the funky take off and startup throttle issues fixed...
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
I also noticed that you changed transport delay and time constant for the headers - you probably don't want to do that at least not from my own testing on this exact same setup - well I was testing with Kooks headers and a no cats setup. Simply being that the headers slow down flow "bigger diameter and further downstream O2's", BUT the supercharger speeds the flow up "via more burnt fuel and air" more than enough to compensate for the O2's new locations... I actually wound up leaning things out messing with it not only at idle, but with throttle too - OE is really close to where they need to be - at least with the same pulley config and Kooks headers...
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
Thanks very much bud, very very helpful. Kind of ran into a new issue, cannot tell if I simply am running out of fuel (highly doubt it with 72lb injectors and a BAP), but check out this last log, I took it right to the rev limiter in 3rd gear. Airflow looks great, throttle stays open, but then suddenly goes very very lean right near 7400-7500 or so, then as I hit the limiter the throttle finally closed a bit. Is this how the rev limiter works in these cars??? I want to have a spark only limiter, never cut fuel, that is so dangerous. Its weird though because it is still showing the commanded lambda as 0.787, its reading much much leaner, but not adding any fuel via the fuel trims, so to me looks like a fuel based limiter (closing the injectors).
WOT to Rev Limiter.hpl
I've noticed this on every Roush/Whipple car I've done - it's like they're anticipating the limiter, so they start briefly cutting fuel early. You can change some of the limits to help, but I've personally never been able to go 100% throttle cut for the limiter...
You should be putting down somewhere right around 730 to the tires with your setup too - with the tune just like it is...
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
I've noticed your tweaking of the max airflow allowed for torque reduction scenarios, you have it raised up, I thought it was the opposite, I thought the number was the max airflow it could reduce, so for example 30% means the max airflow it can reduce is 30% leaving me with 70% of the original airflow.
Do I have it backwards in my understanding?
Bump the thing that simplifies calculations at high RPM up out of the way. Can't remember what it's called and I'm not at my computer right now. Chrono something. It's enable 7k disable 7,500 stock. Cylair Anticipation causes funny issues like this when enabled and speed density not being dialed in really well too. Try turning it off also. Warning... Your MAF curve very likely might need some major adjustment after turning it off.
@Ghuggins - are you aware of any real changes in the old versus new Whipple calibrations? Aside from what can be seen in the calibration compare?
I am really struggling here to be able to datalog the new calibration, HP Support is a TBD for when they will make it work for me, does the old Whipple calibration datalog ok? I am thinking of licensing the old version and loading it up so I can datalog properly and still have my flare tool capabilities.
Nevermind, just got email from support to give it a go again for the PIDs, lets see!
And for others that come across this, the entire Flare Tool Guardian functionality was added as part of the newest calibration. No idea how it would function to try to use the Flare tool with the old calibration, but my gut says it probably wont work.
Flare tool Guardian Functionality? I am unaware of any behind the scenes changes in the OS, but who knows with whipple? I sent HPT my flare tool a while back in hopes of them figuring something out for modifying the limits in the background - didn't think anything came of it, but sounds like they made some real progress recently?
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
As long as your running stock O2 settings, that MAF curve should be almost spot on or at least very close...
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
No No, sorry Guardian was the original name Whipple gave the configuration tab of the Flare tool software, where you can adjust all the power, timing, CHT, overload limiting etc. This was released in Feb 2016, so any calibration BEFORE that date was designed without having those configuration options. In additional, I also just realized prior to Feb 2016, both the fans on the stage 2 intercooler and the intercooler pump itself were designed to run off the IMRC plugs, which I can only imagine was a different calibration, as well.
My MAF curve was off about 2-3% when keeping the transport values I had put in.
So if I'm understanding this correctly - you can now use the hpt interface with the whipple software? No need for the flare tool? That would be awesome on it's own...
2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80
~Greg Huggins~
Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC
No, not what I mean.Originally Posted by GHuggins
2015 to Feb 2016, all calibrations from Whipple were designed to have no end user adjustability in the Flare tool, it was a simple flash and done calibration.
Feb 2016 to present, the calibration is designed to have all the configuration options using their software and the Flare tool, including the power by gear, CHT and overload limiting, etc., but still all with their tool.
I am simply stating I have no idea what would happen if I were to flash the PCM with a pre Feb 2016 calibration and then try to use the flare tool to change some of the configuration, like my rev limit.
Which of the adjustments are you guys missing from the tool? We may add a few if they are a must have.
Their rev limiter is a MUST have ability to change. Even though I have the PCM set for 8000rpms I am hitting the Flare tool set limit (in the BCM?) of 7500 (starts to cut fuel at 7400). Its a 30-40whp difference between 7400 and 7900 rpms. I need to be able to kill this limiter or be able to adjust it.
The power by gear reduction (works by closing the throttle) is also very a good to have, no one has any traction in 1st and 2nd gear, with their tool I have full traction in both gears with the reduction set to 20-25%.
Lastly their Knock limiting tends to be too reactive and closes the throttle with heightened knock sensor voltages (no KNOCK level noise, pre knock level noise) and even Whipple says to turn it off. If you just upload their tune and don't have the flare tool, this logic is defaulted to on.
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