Stock VVT cam tuning help needed for modified Ly6 (Engine swapped into a Kia Sorento

[LSxPoweredSorento]

Hello everyone!
I have been running the Ly6 in my Sorento for a while now. I was attributing the high RPM power brake up to a possible fuel pressure issue. I now have a fully capable pump and pressure regulator but still have the issue.
It basically falls on it's face above maybe 4k. If I let off the throttle a little it actually feels faster!!
I had been suggested that it was possibly VVT timing related?
A few posts stated they had just set their timing on the big table (high throttle VVT timing table under "AirFlow" tab on HPtuners) to 0 and then 1* at like 2800 smoothed to 12* at 6k. I gave it a shot and it seemed to work better.
However I want to dial this in the right way...
My Ly6 has an Ls3 intake, 90mm DBW throttle body, 4" cold air intake, 1-3/4 primary shorty headers w/v-bands that dump into 3" dual exhaust, stays true dual to a Magnaflow X-Flow muffler which then dumps out the side of the Sorento (3" pipe won't go over the rear axle now that it's lowered 4")

If anyone could make a suggestion or perhaps share their tables? I would very much appreciate it!

I was adjusting the "Intake Camshaft Base Angle". I read this was the tab.... However, I see under "Spark" tab there is a "Variable Cam" area too (VCP Spark).

These pictures are of the tables that were setup by a guy that did a "running/driving" tune for me based on engine and modifications. It wasn't meant to be a performance tune and i have had to make some changes just to get it reliably driveable. These don't show the changes i made while tinkering with things.


LowBaro.jpg

MedBaro.jpg

HighBaro.jpg

VcpSpark.jpg

[5FDP]

How is the rest of the tune though, are both VVE and MAF fully dialed in with no knock and good timing?

I too start retarding the cam timing much lower around 2300rpm and ramp it up higher.

[LSxPoweredSorento]

The cam spark timing or the camshaft position?
VVE and MAF are the way he had set them up. He knew I had the LS3 intake. I will have to check them out.
Last time I did a log I had no knock and good timing.

[IARLLC]

5FDP is referring to cam position. I totally agree with his recommendation. You could start the retard even lower. GM started the cam retard on GEN4 Yukon 6.2s just off idle. Stock LY6s feel kinda weak until the cam retard kicks in at 4000. Your light rig with a 6.0 with smooth out a lot from this mod.

It is strange that yours is falling on its face at 4000. I am concerned that the ignition advance on your 4th table above will not work well with the new cam mapping though. You might be getting major knock retard by 4800 or so. LY6 don't have really low timing built into their main ignition tables then add it through these other tables. If your initial tune has additional timing in the high octane table it might not combine well.

Probably best to post your tune and a log of it having the issues you refer to.

[LSxPoweredSorento]

5FDP is referring to cam position. I totally agree with his recommendation. You could start the retard even lower. GM started the cam retard on GEN4 Yukon 6.2s just off idle. Stock LY6s feel kinda weak until the cam retard kicks in at 4000. Your light rig with a 6.0 with smooth out a lot from this mod.

It is strange that yours is falling on its face at 4000. I am concerned that the ignition advance on your 4th table above will not work well with the new cam mapping though. You might be getting major knock retard by 4800 or so. LY6 don't have really low timing built into their main ignition tables then add it through these other tables. If your initial tune has additional timing in the high octane table it might not combine well.

Probably best to post your tune and a log of it having the issues you refer to.

IARLLC,
Thanks so much for the info. I honestly can agree with you on the sluggish off the line feeling. I could probably attribute some of that to the crappy gearing of the 07+ Sorento. The rear differential is 3.333:1 and it's tied to a 6L90e trans. I thankfully CAN swap out the third member for the earlier Sorento gears which are 4.666:1 and also have a factory Eaton LSD.
I will happily post my tune and a log file!
Last night I did a little tinkering.... I noticed that my intake volume was a massive number compared to the 2010 Camaro I was referencing for fuel delivery info (I am running a GMPP LS3 intake assy w/ DBW t-body). From the fueling/injector tables it looks like he never changed the intake info to match my setup.
So for shits and giggles I copied the fueling, injectors, intake, VVT timing over. Wow did it seriously wake the thing up!!
It pulled hard to the redline in second, smashes 3rd but starts to break up near the redline.
I know it has more to give... I am interested in seeing what happens with can timing pushed lower like you mentioned.
These VVT cams aren't like the VTEC stuff I've tuned before I assume. Besides the obvious single cam obviously, the VTEC doesn't come on earlier at all like the VVT cam.

[IARLLC]

You are totally welcome. Hope it helps.
The 6L90E's 4.027 first gear combines with your 3.33 for 13.41. That is like a 4L80E with 5.41 rear gears. Some of the soggy response is likely from Torque Management. The computer gets very involved....limiting power/trying to smooth everything out. Other contributors are the massive intake ports on those heads...and very low stall converter...if it were not for the very low first gear it would take a month to get up into the power curve.

Yeah, if you have LS3 injectors...LY6 injector info would really throw things off.

Once we see your tune and log we will see what else can be done to make that Sorento fly.

[LSxPoweredSorento]

You are totally welcome. Hope it helps.
The 6L90E's 4.027 first gear combines with your 3.33 for 13.41. That is like a 4L80E with 5.41 rear gears. Some of the soggy response is likely from Torque Management. The computer gets very involved....limiting power/trying to smooth everything out. Other contributors are the massive intake ports on those heads...and very low stall converter...if it were not for the very low first gear it would take a month to get up into the power curve.

Yeah, if you have LS3 injectors...LY6 injector info would really throw things off.

Once we see your tune and log we will see what else can be done to make that Sorento fly.

Awesome! Thanks man!!
I will post up the base tune that was given to me by my tuner. It is just a "run and drive" tune that he made to get rid of VATS and some of the other EVAP equipment that was not included. I did go in and setup the fans. For some reason he didn't and they were not working. I believe he thought the fans (being a Silverado 2500 HD donor) were clutched engine driven fans rather then electric. Which is not the case, even my stick water pump didn't have the fan mount on it. Although now I'm using a 2010 Camaro water pump due to the better water outlet position.
I also had to remove a couple things that were triggering a MIL (wheel speed sensor and a 4x4 sensor code of some sort, can't remember off the top of my head)
I will upload the tune in a few minutes.
Again, just to note, this is the tune before I started touching any fuel, ignition, or VVT settings!
I will happily thank you publicly on my FaceBook page for your help!! I owe you man! If your ever in NE Ohio look me up!! You can take this beast for a spin!!

[LSxPoweredSorento]

....Once we see your tune and log we will see what else can be done to make that Sorento fly.

Here is the tune file. I will have to dump it into the Sorento to take a log. I will let it idle and you can see the strange random idle stumbles. It idles smooth then every few seconds it stumbles, the 02 readings drop, then it recovers immediately and idles smooth again. I dont have a dyno so i can give you a log that has me driving down the street then i can make a full throttle run to about 60 where the freeway is. That should give you enough data correct? Or would you like a couple 0-60 runs on the freeway? Our freeway dead ends into the state park (Mentor Headlands Beach Park) and its not very busy at all!

Unfortunately for some reason when i run a log it kills my SpeedHut CAN-Bus gauges and they don't read any data. So i have to watch the laptop to see my speed and such!

Here is the tune file... I was trying to get my tach to work correctly. I originally had a SpeedHut Can-Bus tach but it was not working correctly. It was very notchy and wouldnt read smooth and quickly. It would snap to the RPM it was being given but almost like it was reading every 1000ms rather then much quicker and smoother. So SpeedHut sent me a "Revolution" series tach that reads from the Tach wire. I need to put a resistor from 12v to the signal wire to get it to work correctly. I also added a longer fuel prime because with my aftermarket pump and FPR it have to prime longer, it doesnt hold pressure. Then of course i mentioned the fans earlier.

LSx Sorento 7-16-17 Tach Fans Fuel Prime.hpt

Specs for the swap are...
2009 Silverado 2500HD Ly6
2009 Silverado 2500HD 6L90e transmission (same donor VIN for both)
Ls3 GMPP intake manifold w/ injectors, rail, and 90mm DBW throttle body
LS GTO shorty headers 1-3/4 primary tubes. These were modified. I cut off the 2.5" flange and welded in 3" tube to match the collector. I had to do this to route the 3" tube around some obstructions (steering shaft)
3" dual exhaust to a Magnaflow X-Flow muffler
Spectre cold air intake from a Silverado 1500 6.0L

Thanks again!! So very much!

[LSxPoweredSorento]

Here is the log file from that base tune...

This is an idle and cruise log
Stock Street Drive.hpl

This is the WOT pulls from the base tune
Stock WOT pulls.hpl

This is the tune file that i did some modifications to. I basically compared a 2010 Camaro with the base tune i got and modified the VVT perimeters, fuel, intake size, and some other things to match my intake assembly.
This pulls SO MUCH harder then the base tune but breaks up BAD near the red line. Maybe too much cam timing?

This is the tune file.. You can tell me how bad I did... lol
LSx Sorento 9-28-17 VVT - Fuel - Spark - from Camaro.hpt

Here is the log from that tune. Im sure you can see where it breaks up at high RPM
WOT and cruise - Camaro VVT - Spark - fuel.hpl

Thanks again!!!

[5FDP]

Part of it is a major lean problem, fuel trims adding between 20-35% on the regular. The o2 sensors should out to near nothing at WOT. Do you have a wideband to confirm this? You really really need one here.

Focus on fixing the airflow tables before getting into WOT and timing adjustments.

[LSxPoweredSorento]

Part of it is a major lean problem, fuel trims adding between 20-35% on the regular. The o2 sensors should out to near nothing at WOT. Do you have a wideband to confirm this? You really really need one here.

Focus on fixing the airflow tables before getting into WOT and timing adjustments.

Is this in reference to the base tune I posted or the one with Camaro specs?

Could the lean issues be due to not running enough fuel pressure with my FPR? I think I'm running around 56-58 psi but I can crank it up.

[IARLLC]

As you are coming up lean with both tunes you might be right about the fuel pressure. Best to check fuel pressure both at idle and full throttle/high load & rpm. This is a very high priority at this point. The tune thinks you have 400 kpa (58 psi). If you really do have 58 psi all of the time then you just need to increase the airflow models (MAF & VVE) to get more fuel.

I saw one other strange thing happen on the Camaro tune log...there were a couple of moments at full throttle/high load when the O2 sensors showed more fuel was making it in. It was almost as if fuel was sloshing away from the fuel pick-up in the tank. Not sure on that, just seemed like a possible reason.

I think it was a good idea to take LS3 settings for the items that you have changed over to LS3 except for Injector timing. Injector timing depends more on cam specs so LY6 cam/LY6 injection timing.

There are quite a few other things that will be done to make this thing even more fun to drive but as 5FDP was mentioning, you will need the airflow (MAF & VVE) right before heading into other things that depend on airflow being correct. Lots more to say but better to wait to hear about your fuel pressure situation first.

[LSxPoweredSorento]

As you are coming up lean with both tunes you might be right about the fuel pressure. Best to check fuel pressure both at idle and full throttle/high load & rpm. This is a very high priority at this point. The tune thinks you have 400 kpa (58 psi). If you really do have 58 psi all of the time then you just need to increase the airflow models (MAF & VVE) to get more fuel.

I saw one other strange thing happen on the Camaro tune log...there were a couple of moments at full throttle/high load when the O2 sensors showed more fuel was making it in. It was almost as if fuel was sloshing away from the fuel pick-up in the tank. Not sure on that, just seemed like a possible reason.

I think it was a good idea to take LS3 settings for the items that you have changed over to LS3 except for Injector timing. Injector timing depends more on cam specs so LY6 cam/LY6 injection timing.

There are quite a few other things that will be done to make this thing even more fun to drive but as 5FDP was mentioning, you will need the airflow (MAF & VVE) right before heading into other things that depend on airflow being correct. Lots more to say but better to wait to hear about your fuel pressure situation first.

It should be getting fuel pressure all the time... I had it set up to run 58 PSI but turned it up to 60 last night. My pump can supply up to 110psi and 80gph so it shouldnt have any problems supplying the fuel. I need to throw a camera on my FP gauge because its under the hood... Those damn electric gauges are SO MUCH money! I will put the Ly6 injector timing back into the tune. Thanks for the info on that! I didn't think about that! I guess its part of being new to this. Thank god there are people like you and 5FPD to help out! I would definitely be screwed without people like you!
I can edit the airflow tables however, to be totally honest, I am not sure how to start with that? Should i just make a run log then look at the outcome of the run and edit the tables based on the RPM and log outcomes? Which properties of the log should i be concerned with when editing the MAF & VVE table?

[5FDP]

The VCM scanner section has a few write ups on how to adjust the tables, if you have a wideband you should do it that way but you can still do it with fuel trims as they have it both ways.

Fuel trims are only going to be good for part throttle and medium throttle, a wideband will be wanted at WOT because in open loop the computer will not be correcting the fuel for you.

[LSxPoweredSorento]

Damn unfortunately I don't have a wide band. I would need those on both banks too correct, in order to get both tuned in perfect?

I put the injection timing back in for the LY6 and it FEELS like it made a huge difference.... Especially in driving around my neighborhood. Is it just a lying butt dyno or does it make that huge a difference? The numbers were not a HUGE difference from LS3 to Ly6 but I guess a little is just enough??!!

[5FDP]

You only need one wibeband, put it in the drivers side.

Bank to bank is only going to be a very small difference in AFR if everything is working properly and the tuning is good. If in the future you wanted to put the wideband in the passenger side to double check you could do so.

[IARLLC]

I would not know much if it were not for guys like 5FDP. Best thing to do is read and read on here. There are a variety of ideas/flavors/ways written about in here about dialing in your airflow models. And I dare say that they all probably work but we each develop our preferred way. Feel free to ask specific questions as you head into the MAF and VVE tuning. Many suggest doing the VVE before the MAF but not everybody agrees...as long as you do both.

[LSxPoweredSorento]

I think honestly that's the scariest part sometimes about forums. Lots of people have different views ideas and opinions and everything and sometimes they're completely and a whole different spectrum. So it can be hard to know who to trust I guess is the best way to say it. You guys have been fantastic though and I thank you for all the help you provided so far. I definitely know I can trust your opinions and suggestions

[LSxPoweredSorento]

I would not know much if it were not for guys like 5FDP. Best thing to do is read and read on here. There are a variety of ideas/flavors/ways written about in here about dialing in your airflow models. And I dare say that they all probably work but we each develop our preferred way. Feel free to ask specific questions as you head into the MAF and VVE tuning. Many suggest doing the VVE before the MAF but not everybody agrees...as long as you do both.

I must be blind... I don't see anything in VCM Editor for looking at, let alone changing the VVE tables. I found VE tables under "Airflow - General - Main VE which has VE vs Altd Tables.... All Those are zeroed out though.
Also the only MAF table i see is the MAF Calibration - MAF VS FREQUENCY table... Is this the correct table?

*Banging head on table*

I can write ladder logic, robotic programs, system safety logic, and even build/design/CAD Model advanced control panels but this has me feeling like a Kindergartner trying to learn Trig in Chinese!

[IARLLC]

No worries. We were all there....and some of us remember it The majority of this will be simple for you in no time. There are still some mysteries for all of us through.

Yes, MAF vs Frequency is your MAF table to correct.

GEN3 still has a normal VE or Volumetric Efficiency table that was a more direct link to transition fueling based on MAP/load and RPM (Speed Density) but GEN4 does not. GEN4 has a variety of VE related tables. It was a mathematical nightmare adjusting it...then came Bluecat's system for integrating VE information....then came VVE. VVE is Virtual Volumetric Efficiency. On the top of your tuning page when you open the tune you have File Edit Compare Flash etc. If you click on Edit, a couple of rows down you will see Virtual Volumetric Efficiency. There are 4 tables within. I do all of the tables the same on GEN4. When you finish changing the table each time and blending/smoothing it out you hit the apply setting button and it applies the virtual table to the actual tables.

It would be nice if I could find some of the user-friendly guides on here to help you get started but I gotta get back to work right now. 5FDP has guided people through this numerous times. GEN3 guides will get you the concepts you need. Some of the GEN4 VE guides you will find were written before VVE existed....just good to know when trying to follow instructions exactly. Will check back in to see how you are doing.